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Join Date: Feb 2014
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Hi all,
the video about the SESAR trials has been presented by Fraport on the booth of a company called ATRiCS at this year's World ATM Congress in Madrid (6-8 March 2014). The shown results are extremely impressive and somehow hard to believe, but since 20 pilots participated in the trials and conducted 90 missions there is a solid statistical base.
There are also two more videos, one on a controller HMI called TowerPad (integrated controller working position) and another one on A-CDM Pre-Departure Sequencing (priority-based offblock sequening to fit departure demand with available departure capacity).
Hope this helps - the videos are available here: http://vimeo.com/atrics
Love,
Jenny
the video about the SESAR trials has been presented by Fraport on the booth of a company called ATRiCS at this year's World ATM Congress in Madrid (6-8 March 2014). The shown results are extremely impressive and somehow hard to believe, but since 20 pilots participated in the trials and conducted 90 missions there is a solid statistical base.
There are also two more videos, one on a controller HMI called TowerPad (integrated controller working position) and another one on A-CDM Pre-Departure Sequencing (priority-based offblock sequening to fit departure demand with available departure capacity).
Hope this helps - the videos are available here: http://vimeo.com/atrics
Love,
Jenny
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The ATRiCS demo system I have seen at the World ATM Congress in Madrid proposed a taxi route that takes into account wing span constraints, closed areas and also other traffic. I've been told that in most cases the controller (GMC for outbounds and AIR for inbounds) just needs to confirm the proposed route, see
ATRiCS TowerPad on Vimeo
The guys from ATRiCS told me that their system is in use in Incheon (RSKI, South Korea) since 2008 and for the inbounds the controllers wanted the taxi route to be assigned fully automatically.
ATRiCS TowerPad on Vimeo
The guys from ATRiCS told me that their system is in use in Incheon (RSKI, South Korea) since 2008 and for the inbounds the controllers wanted the taxi route to be assigned fully automatically.
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Thanks for the link!
Looks very usefull for ground positions. Is that DXB they are showing?
Wonder why DXB have still not yet established a fully working position during their fog problems ?
EK certainly will like it, but maybe they don't know about that option?
Looks very usefull for ground positions. Is that DXB they are showing?
Wonder why DXB have still not yet established a fully working position during their fog problems ?
EK certainly will like it, but maybe they don't know about that option?
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Hi everyone,
being an ATCO for almost 30 years and working ground (and tower) for the same time I wonder how they will live up to their promises.
Don't get me wrong - I think this is a great thing for pilots but for ATCOs? Entering the route is still an additional task which can create problems while being really busy. Heathrow has addressed this issue by implementing a dedicated position/person but all the others (by the way there are no other so far except Singapore switching it off during daylight because of the extra workload it generated).
The trials in Frankfurt are driven by a company working very hard to sell this stuff which means they are far away from reporting sort of critical about their own product!
In addition they promise a reduction of taxi fuel of more than 40% - imagine this happening in Kennedy or other such places. Everyone MUST run for it - but they don't. They promise 20% shorter taxi times - can this really be true in day to day operation?
Isn't it true that taxi time is determined by distance, speed and the queue at the holding point which is mainly driven by DMAN issuing reasonable TSATs?
They argue that pilots are working with them - yes pilots on their payroll!
They promise far less stops (>65%) but every GND ATCO learns from day 1 on to avoid stops be giving clearance well in advance like 'follow the aircraft from the right or at exit x give way to, behind landing x line up behind ...' and so on. This is done to avoid stops, is basic ATC and it works.
So what can be the truth - besides all the marketing statements? Is all the investment really paying off?
Any discussion more than welcome - thank you!
being an ATCO for almost 30 years and working ground (and tower) for the same time I wonder how they will live up to their promises.
Don't get me wrong - I think this is a great thing for pilots but for ATCOs? Entering the route is still an additional task which can create problems while being really busy. Heathrow has addressed this issue by implementing a dedicated position/person but all the others (by the way there are no other so far except Singapore switching it off during daylight because of the extra workload it generated).
The trials in Frankfurt are driven by a company working very hard to sell this stuff which means they are far away from reporting sort of critical about their own product!
In addition they promise a reduction of taxi fuel of more than 40% - imagine this happening in Kennedy or other such places. Everyone MUST run for it - but they don't. They promise 20% shorter taxi times - can this really be true in day to day operation?
Isn't it true that taxi time is determined by distance, speed and the queue at the holding point which is mainly driven by DMAN issuing reasonable TSATs?
They argue that pilots are working with them - yes pilots on their payroll!
They promise far less stops (>65%) but every GND ATCO learns from day 1 on to avoid stops be giving clearance well in advance like 'follow the aircraft from the right or at exit x give way to, behind landing x line up behind ...' and so on. This is done to avoid stops, is basic ATC and it works.
So what can be the truth - besides all the marketing statements? Is all the investment really paying off?
Any discussion more than welcome - thank you!
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....some more information/discussion input.
I was watching a colleague working GROUND in Vienna today; there is no dedicated ramp control in Vienna (LOWW) just for info - that means ATC is responsible from and until the stand.
Vienna is not one of the busiest airport earth - mid size with some 800 movements a day on annual average.
Today in 30 minutes GND East (two grounds existing) had 33 aircraft taxiing through the sector and there were exactly ZERO stops. All possible crossings have been avoided by 'in time instructions' to pilots.
So where could be the proclaimed benefit?
Any comments out there?
I was watching a colleague working GROUND in Vienna today; there is no dedicated ramp control in Vienna (LOWW) just for info - that means ATC is responsible from and until the stand.
Vienna is not one of the busiest airport earth - mid size with some 800 movements a day on annual average.
Today in 30 minutes GND East (two grounds existing) had 33 aircraft taxiing through the sector and there were exactly ZERO stops. All possible crossings have been avoided by 'in time instructions' to pilots.
So where could be the proclaimed benefit?
Any comments out there?
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wobo63
It is very simple: Technology=GOOD, People=BAD
There is a lot of interest from industry in milking the aviation cash cow. There are billions of dollars available in the NEXTGEN and SESAR programs.
Technology appeals to managers as it costs less than people in the long run, especially if they can get a government grant to buy it!
Technology can effectively raise the skill level of a few but, if not managed carefully, can erode the skill level of the many. It would be interesting to see ground ops at airports that rely on these systems when they fail.
It is very simple: Technology=GOOD, People=BAD
There is a lot of interest from industry in milking the aviation cash cow. There are billions of dollars available in the NEXTGEN and SESAR programs.
Technology appeals to managers as it costs less than people in the long run, especially if they can get a government grant to buy it!
Technology can effectively raise the skill level of a few but, if not managed carefully, can erode the skill level of the many. It would be interesting to see ground ops at airports that rely on these systems when they fail.
Last edited by EastofKoksy; 21st Dec 2014 at 18:12.
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Thank you for your reply. Basically I am very much 'pro-technology' when it really does deliver benefits.
Currently European ATC is driven by the industry with huge influence in SESAR (where they run dozens of workgroups without any OPS people) - exactly as you say. They just promise everything no matter what and all this is heavily subsidized by the European Commission. Impressive what good lobbying can achieve.
I am very much interested in experience with FTG from 'real-OPS people' not just hired marketing guys.
I think there's a lot of knowledge out there and I am always ready to learn!
And as you mention - experience of people using it would be great but I think no one is doing it (besides Singapore during night).
Thanks
Currently European ATC is driven by the industry with huge influence in SESAR (where they run dozens of workgroups without any OPS people) - exactly as you say. They just promise everything no matter what and all this is heavily subsidized by the European Commission. Impressive what good lobbying can achieve.
I am very much interested in experience with FTG from 'real-OPS people' not just hired marketing guys.
I think there's a lot of knowledge out there and I am always ready to learn!
And as you mention - experience of people using it would be great but I think no one is doing it (besides Singapore during night).
Thanks
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Clearance , control of AGL and surveillance all combined in one position with safety nets etc.
Several trials been conducted in SESAR, SEAC, Munich, Frankfurt etc
All show positive results on a number of factors, not just the fuel claims but actual WL reductions for ATCO, increased Situational Awareness.
Far more ATCO friendly than clunky electronic strips, which s bad example of not implementing technology to do something new, but try and replicate something and then fail
