NAT HF Phraseology
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NAT HF Phraseology
Does anyone have a guidance document like CAP 413 on what should be said to HF radio operators on initial check etc.
There’s a bit of guidance in the NAT Doc 007. Position reports etc.
I was flying the other day, a couple of carriers checked in with Gander Radio and threw a few buzzwords at the operator, CPDLC, Shanwick next, request frequencies etc. On both occasions the operator came back quite annoyed requesting call sign only. That’s fair enough, but where’s this written? I’ve asked colleagues and most aren’t clear on it either and I can’t find any references on the net.
There’s a bit of guidance in the NAT Doc 007. Position reports etc.
I was flying the other day, a couple of carriers checked in with Gander Radio and threw a few buzzwords at the operator, CPDLC, Shanwick next, request frequencies etc. On both occasions the operator came back quite annoyed requesting call sign only. That’s fair enough, but where’s this written? I’ve asked colleagues and most aren’t clear on it either and I can’t find any references on the net.
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Its not that difficult but you need to be clear on which boxes you are ticking.
Below is a summary of some of the procedures (i really can't be bothered citing all the authorities).
This,for example,eastbound:
On first contact with all CPDLC facilities, (on either VHF or HF), the CPDLC
suffix must be added to the flight callsign e.g. Montreal Centre Barnburner123
CPDLC.
If entering another Oceanic CTA/FIR this must be stated:
e.g. Gander Radio,Barnburner123 CPDLC, Shanwick next, SELCAL ABDC.
Iceland - If the next CTA/FIR is domestic airspace, the NAT exit point/domestic entry point must be stated:
e.g. Iceland Radio, Barnburner123, CPDLC, exit DARUB.
Take a look at ICAO NAT Doc 007
Below is a summary of some of the procedures (i really can't be bothered citing all the authorities).
This,for example,eastbound:
On first contact with all CPDLC facilities, (on either VHF or HF), the CPDLC
suffix must be added to the flight callsign e.g. Montreal Centre Barnburner123
CPDLC.
If entering another Oceanic CTA/FIR this must be stated:
e.g. Gander Radio,Barnburner123 CPDLC, Shanwick next, SELCAL ABDC.
Iceland - If the next CTA/FIR is domestic airspace, the NAT exit point/domestic entry point must be stated:
e.g. Iceland Radio, Barnburner123, CPDLC, exit DARUB.
Take a look at ICAO NAT Doc 007
Last edited by cribble; 19th Dec 2012 at 07:52.
Whatever HF operator over the atlantic you are talking to, try call sign & frequency first, and you might ie add "position" if you intend to do a position report, but nothing more than that. This gives the operator time to switch to the correct frequency and prepare for you. He's not a controller, he's an operator monitoring multiple frequencies at the same time.
Once you get the get the "go ahead" from him/her you can throw in whatever you want to do/know. You will notice that on many occasions he already knows what you're after, and throw you some freq's and a selcal check without you having to ask for it. Things like CPDLC you do need to add though, because that' something they cannot know (as far as I've been told)
Once you get the get the "go ahead" from him/her you can throw in whatever you want to do/know. You will notice that on many occasions he already knows what you're after, and throw you some freq's and a selcal check without you having to ask for it. Things like CPDLC you do need to add though, because that' something they cannot know (as far as I've been told)
Last edited by BraceBrace; 19th Dec 2012 at 13:48.
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I'm trying to get to grips with the RT that should be used when crossing the Atlantic.
I can find the first communication from Cribble below in the GOLD document but I can't find reference to the exit point.
If entering another Oceanic CTA/FIR this must be stated:
e.g. Gander Radio,Barnburner123 CPDLC, Shanwick next, SELCAL ABDC.
Iceland - If the next CTA/FIR is domestic airspace, the NAT exit point/domestic entry point must be stated:
e.g. Iceland Radio, Barnburner123, CPDLC, exit DARUB.
In the GOLD Doc Appendix E, E.7.3.1.1.5, d) it says to "state the last two fixes in the cleared route of flight if operating outside the organised track system".
The example they give is
" GANDER RADIO, AIRLINE 123 C-P-D-L-C, SCROD VALIE, REQUEST SELCAL CHECK DMCS.
Is this what guys do in practice? I'm assuming the "the cleared route of flight" is the Oceanic clearance, is that right? Otherwise if you were flying New York to Dubai (outside the organised track system, as we might be) would you really include your last two fixes in the UAE?
Any guidance, clarification or help would be welcome
Thanks
I can find the first communication from Cribble below in the GOLD document but I can't find reference to the exit point.
If entering another Oceanic CTA/FIR this must be stated:
e.g. Gander Radio,Barnburner123 CPDLC, Shanwick next, SELCAL ABDC.
Iceland - If the next CTA/FIR is domestic airspace, the NAT exit point/domestic entry point must be stated:
e.g. Iceland Radio, Barnburner123, CPDLC, exit DARUB.
In the GOLD Doc Appendix E, E.7.3.1.1.5, d) it says to "state the last two fixes in the cleared route of flight if operating outside the organised track system".
The example they give is
" GANDER RADIO, AIRLINE 123 C-P-D-L-C, SCROD VALIE, REQUEST SELCAL CHECK DMCS.
Is this what guys do in practice? I'm assuming the "the cleared route of flight" is the Oceanic clearance, is that right? Otherwise if you were flying New York to Dubai (outside the organised track system, as we might be) would you really include your last two fixes in the UAE?
Any guidance, clarification or help would be welcome
Thanks
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The reason the Gander operator was 'annoyed' in post 1 is that CPDLC is no longer required. Refer NavCanada AIC 30/15 replicated by UK and Iceland. The GOLD will be revised to include these changes. In addition there is a Gander NOTAM to say they now assign eastbound 30deg W freqs by CPDLC.
The Iceland AIC differs slightly to Canada:
This eliminates the RT requirements for data link equipped aircraft to communicate "Controller Pilot Data Link Communications (CPDLC)", next Control Area (CTA) / Flight Information Region (FIR), Track and "SELCAL code".
All we need to do now is eliminate HF SELCAL checks, which achieve absolutely nothing.
The Iceland AIC differs slightly to Canada:
This eliminates the RT requirements for data link equipped aircraft to communicate "Controller Pilot Data Link Communications (CPDLC)", next Control Area (CTA) / Flight Information Region (FIR), Track and "SELCAL code".
All we need to do now is eliminate HF SELCAL checks, which achieve absolutely nothing.
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The reason the Gander operator was 'annoyed' in post 1 is that CPDLC is no longer required. Refer NavCanada AIC 30/15 replicated by UK and Iceland. The GOLD will be revised to include these changes. In addition there is a Gander NOTAM to say they now assign eastbound 30deg W freqs by CPDLC.
The Iceland AIC differs slightly to Canada:
This eliminates the RT requirements for data link equipped aircraft to communicate "Controller Pilot Data Link Communications (CPDLC)", next Control Area (CTA) / Flight Information Region (FIR), Track and "SELCAL code".
All we need to do now is eliminate HF SELCAL checks, which achieve absolutely nothing.
The Iceland AIC differs slightly to Canada:
This eliminates the RT requirements for data link equipped aircraft to communicate "Controller Pilot Data Link Communications (CPDLC)", next Control Area (CTA) / Flight Information Region (FIR), Track and "SELCAL code".
All we need to do now is eliminate HF SELCAL checks, which achieve absolutely nothing.
Just curious as to what you believe the purpose of such a check to be. I.e to test the equipment or to test the reception ( or both ).
Last edited by hbjonsson; 30th Jul 2016 at 18:52. Reason: Clarifying question
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The following might explain why Gander get narked when asked for HF for EGGX on first contact...
A3942/16 NOTAMR A2992/16 Q) CZQX/QAOCH/IV/NBO/E /000/999/5454N04327W999 A) CZQX B) 1606231646 C) 1609302359 E) GANDER OCEANIC AREA CTL WILL ISSUE THE 30 WEST EASTBOUND HF FREQ TO FLT ENTERING SHANWICK OCEANIC CTL AREA USING CPDLC(UM117) RATHER THAN HF VOICE. CREWS WILL BE ISSUED A PRIMARY HF FREQ FOR SHANWICK APRX 15 MIN PRIOR TO 30 WEST BOUNDARY. IN THE EVENT THAT CREWS DO NOT ESTABLISH CTC WITH SHANWICK RDO ON THE ASSIGNED PRIMARY FREQ, CREWS ARE ADVISED TO CTC SHANWICK RDO ON A PUB HF FREQ AS PER AIP IRELAND GEN 3.4.4 OR USING THE SELECTION BLW: FREQ OPN HR 2872KHZ 1800-0900 5649KHZ H24 8879KHZ 0900-2100
A3942/16 NOTAMR A2992/16 Q) CZQX/QAOCH/IV/NBO/E /000/999/5454N04327W999 A) CZQX B) 1606231646 C) 1609302359 E) GANDER OCEANIC AREA CTL WILL ISSUE THE 30 WEST EASTBOUND HF FREQ TO FLT ENTERING SHANWICK OCEANIC CTL AREA USING CPDLC(UM117) RATHER THAN HF VOICE. CREWS WILL BE ISSUED A PRIMARY HF FREQ FOR SHANWICK APRX 15 MIN PRIOR TO 30 WEST BOUNDARY. IN THE EVENT THAT CREWS DO NOT ESTABLISH CTC WITH SHANWICK RDO ON THE ASSIGNED PRIMARY FREQ, CREWS ARE ADVISED TO CTC SHANWICK RDO ON A PUB HF FREQ AS PER AIP IRELAND GEN 3.4.4 OR USING THE SELECTION BLW: FREQ OPN HR 2872KHZ 1800-0900 5649KHZ H24 8879KHZ 0900-2100
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My view, is that a SELCAL check (like many other checks) gives absolutely no assurance it will work any time in future. With HF there are a myriad of reasons why a test at (say) 60W will not guarantee success at 40W - weather, HF conditions, sunspots, direction of flight etc etc. No question we must monitor the appropriate freqs but we should do what is done downunder and omit specific SELCAL checks. You could possibly make a case for one, but doing two or three per crossing is nonsense.
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I'd say it depends...
I don't believe that the purpose of a SELCAL check, i.e. to **guarantee** that an aircraft is reachable *at all times* via SELCAL, but rather to ensure that if there is a equipment or reception problem, it becomes known at a time when the aircrew is speaking to the operator when current conditions are apparent to both and equipment tuning can be made to troubleshoot issues or new frequencies assigned in case of poor enough reception.
I don't believe that the purpose of a SELCAL check, i.e. to **guarantee** that an aircraft is reachable *at all times* via SELCAL, but rather to ensure that if there is a equipment or reception problem, it becomes known at a time when the aircrew is speaking to the operator when current conditions are apparent to both and equipment tuning can be made to troubleshoot issues or new frequencies assigned in case of poor enough reception.
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Sorry to resurrect this topic, but obviously the situation regarding R/T phraseology in the north atlantic is changing constantly (frustrating for those that do it only a few times per year).
I attempted to check in today on Gander radio VHF prior to eastbound coast out and was roundly chastised by the radio operator for not including "CPDLC" in my initial callup? I thought this need to specify "CPDLC" was specifically omitted in the latest revisions to the relevant guides.Very confused.
I attempted to check in today on Gander radio VHF prior to eastbound coast out and was roundly chastised by the radio operator for not including "CPDLC" in my initial callup? I thought this need to specify "CPDLC" was specifically omitted in the latest revisions to the relevant guides.Very confused.
