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Old 10th Dec 2012, 09:28   #121 (permalink)
 
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Continuing the thread of older ATC equipment...

I know this has nothing to do with radar but anyway... are there any ATC units in the UK still using solid-state voice switching systems for their RT and phone lines ? I know several NATS and non-NATS units have installed the likes of Schmid and Frequentis VCCS to replace the traditional push button and PO style key and lamp units. Are any of these still out there ? I hope so. I've just bought an old key and lamp unit on ebay and it's a beautiful piece of equipment. Solidly built, simple design and tough, reliable switches that absolutely do the job. Typical British PO engineering and difficult to beat

By the way, Gordon Dennison. Please check your PMs. Thankyou.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 15:50   #122 (permalink)
 
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My memory of them is different. Lamps failing, dirty contacts, intercom switches that wont pop back out, loose wobbly switches.
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 16:23   #123 (permalink)
 
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Given the choice, I'd keep the modern touch-screen (having used both).
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Old 10th Dec 2012, 18:10   #124 (permalink)
 
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Thankyou for your replies Tigersaw and rodan. Tigersaw, it sounds like you had some bad experiences with the old gear. Rodan, is there anything in particular about the touchscreens that you prefer ? Ta.
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 09:42   #125 (permalink)
 
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You didn't work on the SLA1 then? We still had one at Farnborough in '82, replaced by a CR62 in about '83, we never had an SLA3 of any mark although we were supposed to get the one from Pershore, it was delivered but then it was given to Bedford instead. Then when I did my PAR course at Shawbury in '84, I was trained on the SLA3 sims when I would never use it in anger apart from live traffic in Shawbury Tower.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 23:10   #126 (permalink)
 
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Just spend a while reading this thread, very informative, thanks.

I have no ATC connections as such, I wanted to go into RAF radio and radar but failed the eyesight medical being a short sighted and now old bat.

However I have had several visits to ATC units in the past and always enjoyed them.

My first visit was to West Drayton when then had the radar IIRC at Sopley. Thats when I found out not all ATC was radar. Can't remember the date but at least 40-45 years ago. I later visited the same location when the various radar suites were in service. Both great visits and I sure they had to shoe horn me out with force!

I also had visits to various RAF ATC units as an Air Cadet member of staff. One to Wyton's PAR was very interesting. Even I could see that the Vitor on the PAR was rubbish. Got told it was the Station Commander earning his flying pay for the year and was very rusty.

The most interesting visit was to RAF Neatishead about 6 months before they moved to a new control room. They allowed myself and my friend to sit by and watch two controllers on a night exercise. I was surprised how old the equipment was, primary display only but SSR available 4 times a minute via a tracker ball input, press the button and wait for the code to display on a panel.

Yep even at 60 you could put me in front of a display and I'll be happy for hours. Never did manage Swanwick but with the conditions after 9/11 etc I doubt if could get in anyway.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 10:10   #127 (permalink)
 
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I've never had the privilege of working in ATC but I've managed to work at EGNM for nudging 17 years so that's something I suppose. The newer radars and comms system all look fancy and doubtless provide more facilities to the user. That said, I still prefer the older clunky BRITISH stuff.

Warmest wishes for 2013.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 11:34   #128 (permalink)
 
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Plessey Watchman

Are any NATS units still using the Watchman ? I gather there was a plan to replace all of these with the Raytheon ASR10. Just wondered if this has happened yet.

Also, given that Cardiff is NATS, does it still use a Marconi S511 or has this now been supplanted by a Raytheon ?

Leeds Bradford's Watchman is still going strong after 23 years. Still no on-site SSR aerial though. I dare say plenty of British Watchmans are still turning and earning, Teesside, Southampton et al.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 13:30   #129 (permalink)
 
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Mooncrest,
Gibraltar still has Watchman. However, NATS involvement is limited to the provision of ATC services and BCU. The airfield and radar/comms are all MoD owned.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 14:25   #130 (permalink)
 
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Manch still uses watchman but it is in the process of being replaced
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 14:47   #131 (permalink)
 
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Mooncrest: NATS Services Ltd. supply ATS staff to airfields. The operator of the airfield provides the radar and other hardware, but they often have a contract with NATS Engineering Ltd to supply the equipment, hence although many airfields have replaced Watchman with ASR10 (in my opinion a retrograde step) some still use Watchman or whatever else the airport operator chooses to use.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 15:11   #132 (permalink)
 
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Chevron, I take it you don't think the ASR10 is as good as the Watchman. Why is that ? I thought radar technology was always improving.

Opnot, I assume Manchester is getting the ASR10 as well. May I ask what your opinion is on this radar, given Chevron's thoughts ! Also, whereabouts is it being sited ?

Thanks all !
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 16:58   #133 (permalink)
 
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mooncrest
have not seen the radar picture yet so cannot make any comment .Radar head is south of the airfield next to the new smr radar head
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 19:46   #134 (permalink)
 
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ASR10 is a totally processed radar which suffers from track jitter. I can see it's suitable for some airfields inside controlled airspace where you rarely need track accuracy or need to do SRA's, but the Watchman had better data presentation due to it's analogue type display, plus if necessary, you could cancel the AMTI and 'see' raw radar whereas the ASR10 signal is sent from the radar head to ATC in processed form. Also with Watchman, the track history was in the form of a tail formed from the afterglow of previous blips, with ASR10 it's formed by electronic trail dots which don't give you the same information.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 15:03   #135 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for your replies folks. Reading between the lines it seems the ideal approach primary radar is raw from the point of collection, i.e. the radar head and is processed when it reaches the controller at whereupon it can be viewed raw or with bells and whistles. Speaking an an ATC layman I suppose this level of automation and presentation takes the controlling out of controlling, to some extent. I wonder how the introduction of the ASR10 has gone down with controllers as a whole ? Is it popular or not and what do the engineers make of it

Interesting to note the siting of the ASR10 at Manchester. The Watchman was over on the southside before the second runway was built, as I recall. I remember the Marconi 264 somewhere near the then RW24 threshold.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 15:58   #136 (permalink)
 
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<<Speaking an an ATC layman I suppose this level of automation and presentation takes the controlling out of controlling, to some extent.>>

Not at all because radar simply provides a picture of what is happening, whether it is raw or processed. OK, modern radar displays have bells and whistles, most of which are not needed, but they don't change the controlling task.
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Old 9th Mar 2013, 21:15   #137 (permalink)
 
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chevvron,
Don't forget that although the original Watchman had Plessey analogue displays, the RAF (and maybe others) replaced these consoles about ten years ago with FR digital displays working through a Windows-type processor. No afterglow, just computer-generated trail dots. So the basic primary radar was a Watchman, but it was viewed through a much-updated type of display from a different manufacturer.
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 03:11   #138 (permalink)
 
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We had an FR rasterscan display hooked up to the Watchman installed in the old tower at Farnborough for about 6 months before we moved out, and it displayed the ordinary primary returns rather than electronic ones. The TFT based ATM was also hooked up to the Watchman, prior to being moved to the new tower. Maybe it's only the NATS installed ones which have fully processed Watchman, although I'm aware the Anglia Radar displays which displayed the Cromer Watchman at Stansted were fully processed analogue displays.
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 16:41   #139 (permalink)
 
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Hello HD,

I understand what you're saying. I was just trying to extend the analogy of when SSR was first introduced which obviated the need for a 30 degree identification turn and, later on, requests for passing levels and so on.

It will be interesting to see how the non-NATS units get on when their legacy radar equipment is replaced by the likes of the ASR10 and the Thales thing (sorry, can't remember its name).
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Old 22nd Mar 2013, 12:41   #140 (permalink)
 
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Reply to Gordon Dennison re swapout of LBA radar:

My mother taught at Springfield, the Special School at the junction of Whitehouse Lane/Scotland Lane. I was a spotter at LBA from 73/4 and used to walk down to the school to cadge a lift home afterwards.

Can clearly remember seeing a 'scanner' unit on the old apron and subsequently noticing the Plessey logo on the active item on the a/f.

Circa ;ate 74 or early 75?

Last edited by Airbanda; 22nd Mar 2013 at 12:51.
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