Avoiding_Action

£135million in profit. It doesn't seem like it's in too much of a mess.

kats-I

250kts

Why shouldn't we be party to all information?? How could we make an informed decision with out all facts? If there is nothing to hide then all facts should be given..good or bad!

I'm sure people don't think a decent payrise is a right, just fair, maybe Nats would be financially better off if the airlines hadn't been given £45m as a "RIGHT" because the shareholders expected it !!

eglnyt

That profit was made last summer before traffic took a 12% dip. As the warnings often say previous performance should not be taken as an indicator of future returns. The desperate attempts to save cash even at the expense of increased long term cost that we've seen over the last few months suggests that somebody with access to the full figures thinks very much that it's in a mess.

Any commercial company, and NATS is a commercial company, has information that has to be kept confidential for fear of affecting its negotiating position with customers, banks and suppliers. If a few union representatives subject to confidentiality agreements are given access to that information it is likely that it will remain confidential. If several thousand people are given access it will be public knowledge very quickly.

250 kts

And I'm sure BA thought the same in 2008 when they made £900m.

kats-i. You're being naive if you really think it right for us all to know all of the finer details.

I have the same opinion as you about the dividend. The majority of the cash should have been put away for the rainy day that will shortly appear over the horizon. The Airline Group knew what they were getting in to and management shouldn't have given in in the way they did, £15m would have been reasonable in the circumstances and the rest set aside or used for the pension.

kats-I

eglnyt/250kts

I didn't necessarily mean we need to know all NATs business just any details that affect us making a decision.

However the deed is done and can't be undone...or can it??

Standard Noise

And there's the rub.

Still, don't suppose the senior management will even bother doing a Willy Walsh despite their pleas of poverty.

LEGAL TENDER

Can't believe someone is still defending management !

Can we not just accept the fact that our management is a lying bunch completely detached from the workforce ?

Now we even got a quiz on natsnet to find out how tuned into our "customers" we are.

Who f***ing cares springs to mind !! If I wanted to know about marketing and that kind of stuff I would have done another job.
I wonder if the people at Schmid, Raytheon, Thales or even Aramark (?!) give a f**k about Nats' business. Or they just care that their invoices are paid...

But us instead.. no. We can't look after our own, but we have to show interest in BA and easyjet.

eglnyt

Not defending management, just pointing out that there are factors which have to be taken into account.

Any business that doesn't consider the needs of its customers either has an unregulated monopoly or isn't likely to be in business for long. As a regulated monopoly NATS has to carefully consider its customers because they have a lot of sway with the regulator. The tighter the price controls in CP3 the more pressure there will be on our terms and conditions so it's in all our interests that NATS manages the relationship with its customers and limits their demands to the regulator.

250 kts

I was defending reality not management.

Well as a service provider you should. Their requirements have and will continue to change and it is essential that we react to those changes. I'm sure if you as a customer of BA get a crap service ( I know you probably have) you'll be the first to moan about it.

Some of our customers have a real fight for survival and the worst thing that canhappen for our long term terms and conditions is that a major customer goes under. It ain't rocket science.

Avoiding_Action

If it's such a mess why would they give away £43 million in dividends?

055166k

Well I'm glad they [management] care about something, because they care little about their staff. A controller colleague just retired after almost 40 years service.......during which he took FOUR [yes...FOUR] days sick leave....apart from a crappy watch or something after 25 years....he got absolutely F all.
He did of course take much respect and good wishes from his brother and sister ATC buddies.

anotherthing

Tuned into customers is a load of bull as far as operational staff are concerned.

We go in and do our best every day, because if we don't we could end up killing a lot of people, bottom line.

Tuned into customers is 100% an office based target, which is not being achieved - for axample - Operations departments who bring in changes despite the ATCOs (their customrs) telling them en-masse that the changes are not fit for purpose and are in fact more dangerous than the old procedures.

Instead of 'tuned into customers' why don't we have a 2011 vision called 'reality check' whereby staff should spend 5 or 10 minutes thinkng about what NATS is as an ANSP and then aply future policy acordingly.

eglnyt

As I've said before in another thread I won't disagree with anybody who thinks that the £43 million should have been retained just in case. That said the board gets to decide what to do with the the profit and the shareholders have a legitimate claim to some of it. I'm just thankful they didn't take any more.

I don't see why people should expect to receive anything on retirement except thanks and good wishes from management and those they worked with. Where I work the managers make sure that people retiring are properly acknowledged when they leave but any gift comes from colleagues. It's always been like that both as a government agency and a privatised company. If you are saying that they didn't receive proper acknowledgement from their managers then that is perhaps a failing by those managers because others do it.

Minesapint

When I retire I don't want the thanks and respect of management - just the mates made over a 43 year 'career' in ATC. No 'managers' at my leaving party - the dogs will get them before they get in

mr.777

Knowing your fondness for all things management, I have no doubt that you would include "a good pension" in all this stuff that we should not expect to receive when we retire.

Avoiding_Action

But pay rises can be capped "just in case"?

ZOOKER

PeltonLevel

That's true for flights starting and/or finishing in the UK - they have to use NATS for at least part of their route.
Overflights have a choice.
Operators take many things into account when deciding the routes to fly, including the ANS costs, the fuel burn and the ANS quality of service. When fuel costs are low, the UK mileage is minimised. When fuel costs are high, the mileage flown is minimised. When French ATC is on strike, more will bypass France by flying oceanic routes or going via Belgium and Germany.

ZOOKER

terrain safe

Only perhaps in NERL. Generally in NSL we deal with them on a daily basis, either on the phone or in person. Having worked in both there is, sadly, a massive difference in attitude between the two parts of NATS. SOME of the NERL ops staff have absolutely no idea of who their customers are and don't care either. I know that we all stop the aircraft banging together, that's a given along with expedition, but we need to know who we answer to. In TC the approach sectors customers aren't the airlines, they are the airports that they are working the approach function to, but talking to them you would think the airport is their customer. There needs to be a sea change at NERL to match that which NSL went through a few years ago and loose the old civil service attitude and realise that we all have to work together.

Please note I'm not management, probably never will be, but I do care that I do my job to the best of all my abilities.