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Old 26th Apr 2009, 22:27   #1 (permalink)
 
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Controlled Airspace....Basic Service or FIS?

At the NATS ATSOCAS briefing I attended I had understood that the new services (BS, TS, DS etc) were to be available outside controlled airspace and would replace FIS, RIS, RAS etc. Pretty clear and no issues there.

The question was asked of the presenter at the seminar as to whether the existing provision of services would in any way change inside controlled airspace and the answer received was that the review related solely to provision of ATS outside controlled airspace and that nothing would change as regards controlled airspace. The presentation was some 4 months ago.

I have since VFR transitted Class D on 5 occasions since 12th March when, and been offered a BS three times and a FIS twice. I'm not clear on what should be asked for and what should be provided inside controlled airspace. I'm not particularly bothered as to which is correct but it seems that the controllers weren't too sure either (although the FIS's were in the 2 weeks post implementation and the BS's were the more recent transits).

It also seems odd that NATS marketed the alterations as changes to ATS outside controlled airspace (look at the title of the presentation and the CD that we all received) although it certainly now appears to be being applied consistently both inside and outside CAS.

My own view is that it is better just to have one set of services applied within and outside CAS simply to avoid total confusion (and this is what appears to be happening in practice) but was this the original intention and was it properly briefed and is it being applied consistently across the country in all CAS?
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Old 26th Apr 2009, 22:39   #2 (permalink)
 
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It is my understanding that inside controlled airspace you will receive a Radar Control Service. Basic, Traffic, Deconfliction services only apply outside (class F/G)

S.
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 07:21   #3 (permalink)
 
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Portree Regional, the presentation you attended probably related just to ATSOCAS, reflecting what is set out in CAP774. The changes to the Flight Information Services as a whole do also relate to what you can expect within CAS and, for "chapter and verse", you will find the Services described in CAP493 MATS Part 1.

Section 2, Chapter 1 para.1 sets out Aerodrome Control Services as follows :

Chapter 1 Aerodrome Control
1 Provision of Services
1.1 An Aerodrome Control unit shall provide:
a) Aerodrome Control Service.
b) Basic Service.
c) Alerting Service.

... and Section 3, Chapter 1, para.1 relates to Approach Control and reads :
Chapter 1 Approach Control
1 Provision of Services
1.1 An Approach Control unit shall provide:
a) Approach Control Service with or without the use of ATS surveillance systems;
b) Basic Service;
c) Alerting Service.
... while Section 3, Chapter 2, para.2 relates to Approach Radar units and reads :

Chapter 2 Approach Radar
2 Services
2.1 The service provided depends on the type of airspace within which the aircraft is operating as described below:
Within controlled airspace Radar Control Service;
Outside controlled airspace Procedural Service, Deconfliction Service, Traffic Service, or Basic Service.

Finally, Section 1 Chapter 11 describes UK Flight Information Services, much as set out in CAP774.

Hope this helps ...


JD

Last edited by Jumbo Driver; 27th Apr 2009 at 07:40. Reason: finger trouble ...
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 08:59   #4 (permalink)
 
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Jumbo Driver is right.

VFR in CAS D is under a Radar Control Service.

Portree, it may be that a change of service wasn't declared to you upon crossing the CAS D zone boundary after being identified outside prior to entry.

As for your wish for the same service inside and out of CAS... that is not being realistic!
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 10:06   #5 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
VFR in CAS D is under a Radar Control Service.


Not strictly true. That implies that you have been identified on radar.

If you are going through an airfield Control Zone you will probably be under an Approach Control Service or a Basic Service. In which case you do not need to be identified, you do not be told of the type of service, it is assumed that you as a pilot know the rules of being inside Class D airspace, know how to navigate according to what clearance you have been given and know how to report your position.

There are plenty of occasions when you might go in and out of Class D VFR and not be identified on radar. Under Standard Entry/Exit lanes or VFR routes for one. Low level pipeline inspections, helicopter work etc...

Now if you are crossing a Class D Airway or a TMA then that is another matter. Generally you will be higher (FL70+) so there is more chance that you will be spotted on radar and you will be mixing it with lots of commercial air traffic. If the controllers can squeeze you through, then you might get a VFR clearance, but it will probably be with the backup that you can accept an IFR clearance if required. In that case I would expect you would be identified and told you were under Radar Control (to re-emphasise to you that you are in a different environment). But if they are busy the last thing they really want or need is someone doing 100kts at FL80 inside the sector for 20-30 minutes ... it can make every arrival and departure subject to additional co-ordination/climb/descent or vectoring.

What you won't get (and shouldn't get) are Deconfliction Service or Traffic Service inside CAS. If you have, then I suspect it is just a momentary lapse as the controller tries to assimilate yet another change of rules ....

Hope that helps.
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 10:44   #6 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggs Petition View Post
Jumbo Driver is right.

VFR in CAS D is under a Radar Control Service.
Eggs Petition, if you were meaning to attribute the second sentence above to me, that is not quite what I said - however, it is certainly one of the several possibilities.

Inside a Class D Zone, Approach Service may be either Approach Control or Approach Radar, depending on the facilities available. So, back to Portree Regional's question, in the case of a VFR Transit of Class D, the Service provided or offered may be one of three -
  • Approach Control Service (with or without the use of ATS surveillance systems),
  • Basic Service, or
  • Radar Control Service.
What I would say is that any controller offering FIS after 12 March was simply not up-to-speed with the changes ...


JD
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 11:08   #7 (permalink)
 
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Okay... I was making the assumption that Portree had been identified prior to being given crossing clearance.

And we all know what happens when we assume!

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Old 27th Apr 2009, 12:22   #8 (permalink)
 
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<<FIS is dead and gone>>

OK, then, what service does an aerodrome FISO provide in a Rule 45 ATZ ?
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 13:15   #9 (permalink)
 
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I may be wrong but I thought a FIS still exists.

However BS TS and DS all exist outside CAS. I don't believe in CAS you can give a BS as it is an ATSOCAS. Inside you recieve a radar control service or an approach control service.
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 14:06   #10 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkdownman View Post
<<FIS is dead and gone>>
OK, then, what service does an aerodrome FISO provide in a Rule 45 ATZ ?
That's an ingenious question, Talkdownman ...

CAP410 has not (yet?) been amended to reflect the new ATSOCAS but the duties of a FISO are stated in the current edition (March 2002) of CAP410 Part B at Chapter 8, para 1.1, which says :

1.1 With the exception of issuing instructions to aircraft on the ground as described in previous chapters, FISOs are reminded that the service they provide is an information service relating to the ATZ and aerodrome. They must ensure that the information given to pilots is distinct and unambiguous, as pilots will use this information for the safe and efficient conduct of their flights.

... which in current terms sounds to me a bit like a cut-down Basic Service. On the other hand, you might argue that it is an Aerodrome Flight Information Service ... ?

There again, CAP774 mentions in Chapter 1 Service Principles, para. 3 that ...

3. The Services

... The specific services (Basic Service, Traffic Service, Deconfliction Service, Procedural Service) are designed to cater for a wide variety of airspace users and tasks and shall be applied consistently by controllers/FISOs and pilots.
and further in para. 4 that ...

... FISOs are not licensed to provide Traffic Service, Deconfliction Service, or Procedural Service. Therefore, pilots should not request any of these services from a FISO unit.

so maybe it is a form of Basic Service after all ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hootin an a roarin View Post
I don't believe in CAS you can give a BS as it is an ATSOCAS.
But CAP493 MATS Part 1 says you can - see my post above ...


JD


PS My brain is beginning to hurt, as well ...

Last edited by Jumbo Driver; 27th Apr 2009 at 14:31. Reason: reference to CAP774
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 15:45   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
But CAP493 MATS Part 1 says you can - see my post above ...
No. Your post refers to the services that various ATS units provide. From your own post;
Quote:
1.1 An Approach Control unit shall provide:

a) Approach Control Service with or without the use of ATS surveillance systems;
b) Basic Service;
c) Alerting Service.
The above does not mention inside or outside controlled airspace.

Taking a class D zone as an example, the service provided would either be an approach control service or aerodrome control service as appropriate.

The VFR flight would receive an ATC service (with or withour the use of radar) and would receive traffic information regarding other VFR and IFR flights. It would also receive an alerting service (let someone know if you disappear) and a flight information service (let you know if navaids go u/s, the weather etc etc).

If on the other hand the ATC unit was at an aerodrome outside controlled airspace then the aircraft would have to ask for an appropriate service outside controlled airspace.

On the other hand in a part of a CTA that is Class E, then a VFR flight would receive a Flight Information Service including limited traffic information when available and Alerting Service.

The services provided inside controlled airspace have not changed.

That means that a VFR flight wishing to join or cross a Class D airway would be treated in the exact same way as an IFR flight wishing to do the same - agree an appropriate service while outside, receive an EOT and when appropriate clearance. While inside they would receive an ATC service, Flight Information Service and Alerting Service........all regardless of speed.

Regards,

DFC
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 16:25   #12 (permalink)
 
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Jumbo,

to continue....

From CAP774

In order to comply with the Rules of the Air Regulations 2007 (as amended) with regard to flight within an ATZ, specific and, where appropriate, updated traffic information will be provided to aircraft operating in an ATZ.

Over......
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 17:14   #13 (permalink)
 
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DFC:
Quote:
Taking a class D zone as an example, the service provided would either be an approach control service or aerodrome control service as appropriate
Thank you, at least someone's been paying attention! All the posts in here about ATC offering a Basic Service inside CAS are, pardon the pun, BS. When did anyone ever get a FIS inside CAS? For the same reason (i.e. it's a service which is only available outside CAS), you cannot get a BS inside CAS. The clue is in what controllers at units inside controlled airspace will tell you when you call them up from outside their zone asking for a transit e.g. "it's a Basic Service outside controlled airspace".
NS
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 19:02   #14 (permalink)
 
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I'm glad the new services are understood by ATC and pilots alike.

Otherwise it would not have been worth the time and effort spent changing from FIS/RIS/RAS which was done to clarify matters

The old system and nomencleture was perfectly acceptable, some people did not understand it, but then again they couldn't have tried very diligently to do so, 'twasn't difficult.

The new system seems to be throwing up even more confusion.
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 20:03   #15 (permalink)
 
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At least in the old sevice names you got what it said on the jar...!!!!

i.e. Flight Information service....self explanatory??

Radar Information service.....even the uneducated would assume a radar was being used???

New service type's....
Basic service..........what does that mean???? sounds naff to me!!
traffic service........sounds a bit like the old FIS but infact not at all as it is a Radar derived service

Its amazing how many folk ask me for a "Basic Information Service".......!!

If folk before did'nt understand the service's they recieved....for sure they dont now!!!
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 20:18   #16 (permalink)
Spitoon
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When did anyone ever get a FIS inside CAS? For the same reason (i.e. it's a service which is only available outside CAS), you cannot get a BS inside CAS.
Maybe I'm just getting old but I thought that an aircraft getting an ATC service of some sort was also getting a FIS (whatever it may be called these days).....oh, and an Alerting Service too.
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Old 27th Apr 2009, 21:22   #17 (permalink)
 
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Basic Service within CAS

CAP493, Section 1, Chapter 1, para. 8.3 states :

8.3 All ATC units shall provide a Basic Service and Alerting Service to aircraft under their jurisdiction.

I rest my case.


JD
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Old 28th Apr 2009, 06:44   #18 (permalink)
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I must say that I am glad I'm not working operationally at the moment because this FIS thing seems like a real mess. But it also means that I'm not as conversant with and knowledgeable about the new procedures as many others posting here.

Nonetheless, there are some interesting points being raised about the legal and regulatory background which my reading of CAP 774 seems to have overlooked or ignored.

One particular topic, related perhaps to Talkdownman's question, is that CAP 744 describes what happens with controllers and FISOs but there are three levels of ATS provided in the UK, 'Air Traffic Control Service (ATC), Flight
Information Service (FIS) and Air/Ground Communication Service (AGCS)'*.

I know that, technically, AGCS does not provide a FIS but the service is largely indistinguishable from FIS provided by a FISO, particularly for aircraft in the air. What now is the difference between what you get from an aerodrome with a FISO and with an AGCS? Especially with respect to entering or transiting an ATZ?



* See AIC 26/2004.
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Old 28th Apr 2009, 07:52   #19 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Its amazing how many folk ask me for a "Basic Information Service".......!!
It was amazing how many used to ask for a "Flight Advisory Service" before so at least some things never change eh?
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Old 28th Apr 2009, 09:30   #20 (permalink)
 
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<<What now is the difference between what you get from an aerodrome with a FISO and with an AGCS? Especially with respect to entering or transiting an ATZ?>>

Not a lot! AGCS Operators are also allowed to pass traffic information in ATZs. CAP413 says so.

Can't possibly understand why anybody should be confused by this absolutely disgraceful shambles created by the CAA and its CAP774.

So what 'service' do I ask for if some service users require information on my flight for their situational awareness (see:http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ats-point.html) but I do not require any service, not even BS dressed up with TS?

FAS?

Am I expected to go through all this CARPHACER business just so that one or two might possibly be listening to my position report (which is probably only of limited value for only a brief period of time) and risk being vectored (yes, vectored, on a BS) out of the way of a very slightly larger, more important aeroplane going very slightly faster (because of its different type of propulsion) with probably fewer people on board to join an all-important airway?

I think the CAA and some 'ATSOCA' providers (and some Users, for that matter) still need to get some ATSORA issues into perspective.
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