ATC IssuesA place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.
Gonzo,
On the other hand,
Basic isn't £60K top of the scale,not here.
Compare that to pilots.
ASAP 5K.You want to fly on hols on New Years day?
Training payments.Compared to a training captain.when we can kill 500 people?
6 on 4 off.Well it's more like 7 on 3 off.If you want to fly in the middle of the night etc.
33 days leave.Try 28
8 PH.ok we will take them on the days then. Want to fly on holiday on a Bank holiday.
Atco work for less than half the year.What about teachers,or MPs then.
Health insurance.Isn't worth the paper it's written on,in my case.
LV.Well no meal break in the roster,and security screen any food.That's if I get a chance to eat it.
OT £550.Try £230 after tax.My dentist makes that in 2 hours.
Let the papers say that.NATS couldn't afford to even contemplate industrial action.They are a very minor company,compared to the amount of money that the country would lose even for one day.Play it back to them about Barron's pay rise and Aston company van.
I'm slightly confused over that last post. were you comparing it all to a pilot or just the first couple of bits. If you were explaining more about atco details, i mostly agree with you except its 28days hols unless you have been with the company 8 years then you get a couple more days, after 10? or 12? years you get another 3 making it 33 plus 8 in lieu of bank holidays. Your assessment of bank holidays and nights shifts are A1. I would happily take xmas, easter, nyd off every year. but like you say........no flying.
And the teachers/mp thing is true also. 6 weeks in the summer, 2 at easter and xmas. what a job! if it wasnt working with kids it would be a perfect job. MP's are a law unto themselves with all their benefits. make the red barron look like a pauper.
Again correct to the above 2 posts.... but my feelings mirror Gonzo. The newspapers do not need to present a balanced and well written argument. At the end of the day, when I went to Swanwick, my car was sandwiched between two RX8's. Regardless of banding, the ATCO salary is almost double that of a teacher or nurse (starting out). The media will sit outside the biggest units, and interview the RX8 drivers, and will download the freely available salary schemes, and will villify you for daring to strike when you earn so much!
You compare yourselves to pilots, teachers, nurses. How many times have you had to deal with gobby kids, or treat patients in a corridor? I am not saying they are better, oh no. But how many member of Joe Public know what you do? Honestly? How many can say that ATCO's (or any other member of staff) have a rough (or otherwise) time? They can't.
You are not the people on the front lines in their eyes. You are the people who cause delays, and mean that a nurse / teacher couple can't get away on their well deserved week away because their flight cant take off because some people somewhere who earn way above the breadline want even more money!
And as for the pilots... how many times has a tower controller welcomed a flight full of 200 people to Alicante? How many times has a tower controller "waltzed" through the check in area to the admiration of soon-to-be passengers.
Unfortunately, the media do not need to present the balanced argument that we all know and can give ourselves. What they can do is play with the numbers. And they will.
Why all the debate about public support? It matters not a jot other than to make members feel uncomfortable. The outcome of the strike , if it were to happen , would be decided in airline boardrooms and government meeting rooms. Maybe the average member of the public would feel some animosity towards Nats employees for a short time but most people in this country have the attention span of sparrows. Two days after the strike is over, won or lost , and they will be worrying about whatever the great british press tell them to worry about next. Focus on the real issues. Do we want to come out of this with our pensions intact or not.
So what you're saying then (those of you that are worried about your image, that is) is that its ok to lose our pensions, just so long as we look good on TV??
I think that the comparision with PATCO in the US is misleading. I believe that they were not allowed either by law or by temporary Presidential decree from striking and they did and unfortunately Reagan sacked them.
If we were to strike then provided that the unions had fulfilled all the legal requirements of voting, consultation, period of notice, then we have a legal and moral obligation to strike.
The fact we (NATS) have people earning well under £30k as well isn't something the media would be interested in.
An unsympathetic media would contrast an ATCO at Swanwick, on £90k a year... driving into work in his Porsche to do an extra shift for £550 on top and then threatening to ruin your holiday plans because he wants his gold-plated pension scheme to be paid for by customers - which then passes on through the airlines to passengers - against a background of credit crunch, meteoric fuel price rises etc etc.
However, that doesn't mean to say the decision to strike wouldn't be right and justified... the trick is to communicate why it is so.
driving into work in his Porsche to do an extra shift for £550 on top and then threatening to ruin your holiday plans because he wants his gold-plated pension scheme to be paid for by customers - which then passes on through the airlines to
Ah, but if said ATCOs hadn't been doing the AAVAs in the first place then said public may well have had their holiday ruined anyway by the excessive delays the airlines would have had due to the under staffing. In fact the unit has been running on AAVAs for months, keeping delays down and potentially saving NATS £££ fined by the regulator.
It is all about how the story is put across. NATS values an extra day at Swanwick at £550 which is less than £70 an hour-cheap compared to how much a "professional" in other areas would charge. £200 an hour for a decent solicitor down here, and we are supposed to be the best in the world. NATS have continuously failed to sort out it's man power issues and there is no sign of that improving in the medium term. AAVAs are a cheap way for NATS to staff the ops room.
Last edited by 250 kts : 2nd September 2008 at 21:43.
What the media writes / broadcasts has nothing to do with the truth, or indeed public opinion. Does what the media "say" really matter? No, thought not. (One Mr. O'Learly certainly doesn't bother much with the media's pieces, doesn't seem to have done him much harm)
ANY industrial action will damage NATS. Perhaps irrepairably.
The management, who are directly responsible for this sorry state of affairs need to recognise that fact, and start thinking a little more about ways to keep the CAAPS as healthy as possible, rather than concentrating on profits and the sale of NATS for the best price.
NATS staff have some very dry powder. Time to point out to management that it only needs a small spark to set it off, with consequences that can't be good for them.
Geffen
As someone else has eluded, all the poor workers who have saved for holidays etc, who can't go anywhere because we are striking. Not saying it is right but that is the sort of thing prospect will have to work hard at to put across the right message. PR being the all important weapon. Don't for a second believe that management won't be employing the same tactics against the workers.
We don't need to strike. Stop AAVAs/overtime and coming in on days off. It really is that simple, or am I missing something here ?
If "management" ask, just say we need our days off due stress related Pension issues.
No need for public sympathy, NATS would go the same way as ZOOM without Government intervention if we just turned up and did our job which is moving aircraft safely and expeditiously. And what is wrong with that I ask?
Unfortunately some types have jumped on this nauseating Barron "three wheels on my wagon" band wagon.
Last edited by Air.Farce.1 : 3rd September 2008 at 18:34.
As this is a rumour page...... I heard that NATS have set aside £1m for the PR fight. shame they can't just start bunging it into the pension to help make up that "holiday fund" they owe.
So the NTUS published (from what I heard, totally out of turn and against principles/wishes of the management) a report that said the group would meet again last Friday to continue negotiations. Why haven't we heard anything since about that meeting? If the unions are being silenced then they have lost power already. A report/minutes should be made available about EVERY meeting that takes place, so, has anyone heard anything, seen any reports?
Someone a few threads back wondered how the CAA part of the CAAPS was performing?
According to minutes of an Aviation Group meeting I happened to come across today they declared it was performing well ( as is ours) and they will be keeping it open to all new entrants.
Quote:
According to minutes of an Aviation Group meeting I happened to come across today they declared it was performing well ( as is ours) and they will be keeping it open to all new entrants.
Apart from the need for NATS to reduce its overhead, one of the main reasons for them attacking the pensions is due to our customers being unhappy with their route charges supporting such a costly scheme. (statement, not necessarily my view). Why then are they, and indeed NATS, not challenging the Regulator to reduce its costs similarly? The CAA are remaining mute and watching with interest.
When NATS do close the scheme, watch the junior stafff chase the money and vote with their feet to sunnier climes. What staffing problem?
Want to fly on holiday on a Bank holiday.
Well no meal break in the roster,and security screen any food.That's if I get a chance to eat it.
without Government intervention if we just turned up and did our job which is moving aircraft safely and expeditiously. And what is wrong with that I ask?
The CAA are remaining mute and watching with interest. 
Linear Mode
