ATC IssuesA place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.
Just a question to the ATC community. As a Training Captain who fly's single Pilot IFR helicopters why are we treated differently to the fixed wing boys and girls?
As an example, time after time I'm given taxi clearance then half way to the runway I'm given my clearance. When I land, ask for the clearance to be repeated, not unsurprisingly the ground controller is miffed that I'm blocking a taxi way and want the whole damn clearance again. By the way I do mention I'm single pilot, but that seems to make no difference. The fixed wing world get their clearance on the stand.
At decision altitude or minimum decent altitude, I'm given a whole bunch of taxi instructions, and when I say standby (because I'm busy), the tower controller is obviously not happy to give me the clearance again when I finally in a position to make a note of it. Again the fixed wing world get their clearance when they have they speed down to taxi speed.
Apologies if this is starting to sound like a rant, but this appeared to start about 5 years ago and now seems to be endemic, where ever I go - or is it just me?
I mostly fly single-pilot fixed-wing IR and I would say I get the clearance on the stand perhaps one in five flights. Mostly ATC give me the clearance as I am taxying, which admittedly is less of a problem in fixed wing than for you hover taxying. But I guess the answer is that ATC assume that most IR flights are dual pilot which is reasonable enough.
My 2-penneth is it comes from a lack of understanding as to what is involved in flying these different types of aircraft. Liasion visits are a good way of learning about the way other airspace users operate and thus ATCO's can provide a better service. Vice versa with aircrew.
Liason visits are always a good thing and I have a number of courses coming up next year and some spare seats in the back, so I will be inviting the local boys/girls to come and have a look. The question is; how do I get the message out to a wider audience? As I said, I often mention that I am single pilot but it appears the point is lost.
This forum is a good way. You could CHIRP it for another. If a specific unit is a repeat offendor perhaps tell them as you lift, or at a convenient point, that you will request your clearance once on the ground at XXXX. There is nothing wrong with saying 'standby' if given the info when you have your hands full, they will learn eventually!
Failing that stop being so tight and employ a co-pilot!!
Happens in fixed wing single and dual pilot operations as well I am afraid. Being given a clearance or instruction at an unsuitable time I can easily forgive, it's just life. A tetchy or belligerent attitude when you ask for it again I cannot, the controller is providing you with a service and not the other way around.
As an example, time after time I'm given taxi clearance then half way to the runway I'm given my clearance.
Best practice should be for clearances to be delivered PRIOR to taxi.We are told that the taxi phase is a critical phase. There should be no reason why you could not ask for your clearance BEFORE start...or in fact before you accept taxi clearance.
A phone call to the watch manager or a liason visit to the unit involved would go a long way towards ironing out problems you have.
Off sick at the moment, and unable to check the various ATC bibles. However, it is certainly 'best practice' for ATC not to pass clearances while aircraft are taxying, for the simple reason that pilots are engaged in a multitude of tasks involved with preparing for flight. Same goes for passing instructions on final approach. Why don't you ask for your clearance early in the start-up procedure while still on stand? Even if ATC don't have it immediately available this will give them time to obtain it and pass it to you before you start moving. At my unit we ask all pilots if they are ready to copy clearances. Gives the pilot a chance to say 'Standby, call you back in a minute', and avoids having to repeat the message later.
Sounds a bit as though controllers at your unit are bullying you into taking clearances when you are not ready. Don't forget that ATC is a service, and you are the customer. Have you tried a liaison visit to the tower? It may be that an informal chat with the controllers will enable both sides to see the problems and come to an amicable solution.
Last edited by radarman : 4th September 2008 at 19:31. Reason: Wojtus and Eastern beat me to it on a couple of my points.
It seems to me we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. I have had numerous helicopter pilots asking us not to treat them like fixed wing because of the flexibility of a chopper. I agree with the previous statement. Say "standby". If they are grumpy then they are idiots. I think most of us understand the word standby means you might be busy.
Thanks for the replies, yes I do ask for clearance before I taxi and at some airports I ask before start up. But it appears more often than not I'm told to standby, then asked if I'm ready to taxi and when I do then I'm given my clearance.
It's not me gettin tetchy, but ATC when I set down in the middle of the taxi way and ask for the clearance again!
As for employing a second pilot, 95% of police and air ambulance helo's are single pilot with not provision for a second, but we still fly IFR often at short notice.
I just want to spread the word that some of us still fly SPIFR, but if IFR there is little difference between us and the fixed wing world.
The fixed wing world get their clearance on the stand.
Perhaps the majority of IFR clearances that you hear passed to fixed wing on stand are published SIDs ? I would guess that when you depart rotary SPIFR you require a local IFR clearance, and that ATC issue this nearer to your departure because the most expeditious solution is often dependent on the traffic situation. Not entirely satisfactory from your point of view, but it may partly explain why you appear to be treated differently.
When you need to set down on the taxiway to copy your clearance, tell ATC in advance, and they should accommodate this with good grace. If you continue to get grief then, as previously mentioned, I suggest you telephone the relevant ATSUs to discuss the matter.
Last edited by spekesoftly : 6th September 2008 at 10:26.
We do occasionally get SID's, but you are right in that, more often than not it is a "local" clearance and because of the speeds we fly at, getting us out of the way so that we do not clog up the system is the main priority. Having said all that; the clearance may still be fairly complex and as such will need to be written down. But again I ask, please do not give me a taxi clearance at DA / MDA, it's a very critical stage of flight and something will get missed.
As I said earlier I will be running a number of courses later this year and on into next, and will be inviting our local based controllers along for a look see and a chat and I will report back.
Bit alarmed to hear your comments. Where I work, we have received various bits of guidance through our training section on SPIFR helis especially with skids and wherever you operate out of seems to be ignoring them all! I would suggest a polite e-mail / letter / visit to the ATC Manager where you operate from. Hopefully this would eliminate the ignorance that you are encountering.
Similar Threads 
Linear Mode
