ATC IssuesA place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.
Goldfrog don't forget to get all us ATCO's "on board" post meeting about procedures for meeting with some lovely glossy handouts on the latest gobbledegook. This must be produced at massive cost by some CTC hochos sisters company.
Then have a meeting about a meeting to follow the meeting procedure, all sat on those plush leather chairs mulling over the starbucks menu before deciding to go to your on site gym or flicking the 50" plasma over.
Meanwhile us sub human grunts at the centres will keep making the money so you can come on here and tel us what a bunch of ingrates we are.
Personally, I'd give any non ATCO's (or ATSA's) based at CTC a 10% pay cut. But thats just me.
Without getting personal that is how CTC and the rest of admin/ penpushers/facilitaters/non valid, never valid so called air traffic experts are viewed by the operational staff. I was in the forces and in the air force for instance, which is after all in the business of flying, everything revolved around the pilots. Does the same not occur in companies like B.A.? Now I don't want to be placed on a pedestal but in NATS everything seems to revolve around administrators. We seem to be viewed with contempt by management and if they could operate the business without controllers then they would be in heaven.
The difference in mindset can be read each day on Natsnet. Any announcement from management is rejoiced by the CTC and then cynically put down by the operational units (Vision 2011 etc) Except the usual suspects of course who triumph any announcement in the aim of being the next Manager Airports.
When we got into the top layer of UK companies a year or two back I thought I was reading about another company. The opportunities available to its staff like part time, childcare, sabbaticals etc may apply to some but are not available to the operational Atco/Atsa due to a shortfall in staffing. Are they going to close a sector etc because I want to go trekking around India for 8 months? Would a bog standard administrator be in the same boat, I think not.
Whilst i believe to an extent that there is a role in NATS for all parties (what does the chief scientist do?), we are too top heavy with administrators and management positions forever being created for the old Alstrom cronies (the tie-less wonders!) and the like.
Being flippant we could solve it by re-nationalising NATS and getting the pension direct from the government. Profit? Who cares as we are supposed to be a non profit making organisation anyway.
I sometimes wonder why some of the individuals posting here bother to come to work everyday as they seem to hate the company and some of their colleagues so much. There is a total lack of understanding on both sides Ops & Non Ops about how each other contributes to the business. Unless you can get past that there will never be any unity and by the way there are some operational engineering staff at CTC without whom the business would stop as well!
For those unhappy about pay & conditions if the grass is so much greener then you know what to do.
I agree with Hootin that the company has become far too commercial.
What really gets on my tits, working at Swanwick, is all the notices proclaiming me to be a customer of different departments. I'm not a f**king customer, I'm a colleague - it's a department of the same company so how could I be a customer of that department. Total management bullshit if you ask me.
I've found myself compelled to submit my second ever post!
Some of the criticism levelled at my CTC colleagues has been a little harsh. I call them colleagues, because I find myself, after 19 years at operational units (and a valid ATSA at Heathrow) based at the CTC. Not to blow too much sunshine up their arses (you know who you are), I have always found the majority of project people extremely knowledgeable and helpful - but that's not the most surprising thing - I think they actually want to make a difference to the operation by making life easier for you chaps at the coalface. TC Relocation was a good example - For those of you that don't know Goldfrog (a firm but fair person!), he worked tirelessly with ATCO's and ATSA's to provide a sound operation. Just as I did.
Now...what about that payrise?
if there are in fact some, maybe the majority who are knowledgeable and want to make it better for us. can you send them to our ops room instead of the complete morons with blank expressions and 'i dont know' that emits from that hole between their nose and chin???
i love my job, but as stated by others, this outfit is far, far too top heavy and swelling its self with managers, and admin staff will take it in the wrong direction.
as for relocation.... my experience of it was relatively good. but if you want a payrise for working on it. put it this way, if i wasnt happy with it i wouldnt have moved and my manager and the 5000 above him would have known that. if you are wanting a payrise for yuor relocation efforts, i want one for working 2 core sectors and actually having the word 'safety' relevant to my job when i sit down and do it.... we cant get up and go for a starbucks when we need a breather, we have to plough through it and go hammer and tongs to put that many aircraft SAFELY through our sector that would not have been done 5 years ago as deemed too busy. but hey, some so called expert said it looked do-able on paper so it must work....
Payrise!!!! I guess all the extra dosh was spent on that fancy bash that was centre spread in this months company glossy magazine........and talking of fancy bashes I am still waiting for my invite to that 25 year award after over 30 years service!!!
when was the last time we got rewarded or thanked for our work???
handling a mayday with engine loss or smoke in the cockpit???
actually, i do remember a letter from MP jacquie smith a earlier this year thanking all ops staff for something... oh yes, they stuck it in a little folder in the ops room and no one knew about it......
or how about us busting our nuts when mister bush last came to party at heathrow. those 2 days were a nightmare. but we coped, got the delays down and got on with it..... meanwhile the sun was shiny at ctc, no one broke a sweat and you could hear a pin drop.... the biggest drama is starbucks running out of tall skinny latte's.
but ho hum, lets spread some s***e award for some crappy nibs programme and a whole handful of other things..... speed trials, south west and north new airspace all over the glossy nats news. none of them work and are such a waste of our money.
whats next... oh yes, thew new capital airspace..... watch this space.
Reading all these replies I realise now I must be an odd ball.....why?? well because I love my work, thats why, I think the guys and girls I work with (with the very odd exception!) are great, the office staff, the ops staff and even the management I have no problems with, if I have a problem I know I could go to the very top and talk and be listened to....how many other companies could you do that in?? I have enjoyed my work for the past 30 years and hope to enjoy it for another few years yet...all I ask for is that my pension is safe and my pa rises will at the very least match the cost of living rise...one cannot ask for more han that.......I of course realise why I am so lucky.....because I work at Scottish!!! Here we dont eat the kids or stab our work mates in the back....long may that continue!!!!
if you are wanting a payrise for yuor relocation efforts, i want one for working 2 core sectors and actually having the word 'safety' relevant to my job when i sit down and do it..
You've misunderstood me - I was trying (unsuccessfully, obviously) to bring the conversation back to the original thread - which was..."Has anyone heard anything about the negotiations?".
Stealth Moderator - Rarely seen on radar Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,209
Quote:
Because I am currently working ~50 hour weeks to try and deliver two of NATS top 10 projects on time and cost optimised and to my user's satisfaction
Look at your NATS contracted weekly hours ... if they are less than 50, and you are not selling your soul to the overtime devil, then you are a silly person.
If you are doing more than your contract for free, or being rewarded at a stupid rate for anything over your contracted hours, you are a fool to yourself. And screwing it up for all your fellow workers.
__________________ PPRuNe Radar ATC Forum Moderator
I would report this post to a moderator but you appear to be one. As the parent of a child with learning difficulties I find this particularly offensive.
I'm gone from here back to the world of engineering where we appear to be nicer people and less up our own backsides.
I have met Goldfrog and he is a senior engineer who was a major player in ensuring the successful delivery of the TC operation from West Drayton to Swanwick. He was very mindful of the needs of ATCOs when configuring the sectors. Goldfrog is a thoroughly nice bloke who is extremely conscientious. He does not deserve such scathing criticism. PPRuNe Radar - you should be ashamed of yourself.
Hmm perhaps our esteemed moderator's choice of words was a tad suspect, and I am certain no offence was intended.
However, his points remain valid ones. Working for more than your contracted hours without recompense is not wise. Not wise for the individual, as management will expect you to do it again, and you will lose out. Financially and in personal time. Not wise for your colleagues, as the management will expect the same of everyone else.
NATS is now allegedly a "commercial" company. Perhaps its should now start behaving like one, and paying for "extras" accordingly. As I see it, it gets by because of the sheer professionallism and commitment of it's staff.
BEX.
P.S. Touch my pension and I will be angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. (The same is true for most operational staff)
Look at your NATS contracted weekly hours ... if they are less than 50, and you are not selling your soul to the overtime devil, then you are a silly person.
If you are doing more than your contract for free, or being rewarded at a stupid rate for anything over your contracted hours, you are a retard. And screwing it up for all your fellow workers.
Non operational staff are generally contracted at 35 hours a week. I'm also involved in project work (and have worked with goldfrog and I suspect snug as well) and there are times when you have to put in the extra hours, otherwise the project will miss its delivery. Would the operational staff be impressed if, for example, TC or PC never moved on time and all of the house moves, kids schools etc. were thrown into disarray?
I'm not suggesting that the motives for working additional hours are purely altruistic (pride in your work, doing a good job etc. are also factors) but there is real motivation in delivering your product to your customer when you promised. I make no apology for using those 'business' terms, we are a business even though some NATS staff don't like it.
From some of the comments in this thread some operational staff need to expand their horizon outside of their own little world and try and look at the bigger picture. They have obviously never interfaced with project staff and give every impression of having zero understanding of just exactly what's involved in a project. Oh and I do understand what its like being operational, I was (and still am as a profession) an ATCO.
Lets not get lost on petty squabbles here......we all understand that ATC is a team job, wether ATCO,ATSA,ATE,AFISO,office worker etc etc we all work together to succeed in doing a safe job.....lets stop all this petty squabbling and pull together as a team and drive forward to our final goal....and that is recompense for a great job we all do and protecting our pension rights.........all this infighting is going to help no one!!!
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