ATC IssuesA place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.
The Band 5 Atcos have shafted their own collegues in lower band units,by voted for pay deals in the past.It's not just MSG7 that are effected.The pay differential Band 2 to Band 5 is about £25K+.Our Band2 Atco has to be multi rated,and if you look at other units,then we do the second rating for nothing.
Do Atcos get fairly paid?Well I can kill a lot of people,and the stress can have long term medical implications.Band 2 is reasonable until you look at other pay scales within Nats,and then it looks ridiculous.
If there was a level playing field,and everyone was treated fairly,then there wouldn't be a problem.However the Band 5 units will always get the silver spoon,at the expense of everyone else.
Band 5 units are busier and more stressful than band 2 units.
The only sympathy I have there is for people at band 2/3/4 units (towers) where the approach function is done at TC and so their old colleagues who used to work at the same location moved counties and got band 5 pay for breathing the same air and using the same loos as TMA/swanwick controllers.
Mr Barron must be reading this thread, laughing over his new pay deal, thinking we are gonna be easy targets... Ladies and Gents, a friday proverb... Together we fight, divided we fall... ATCOs, ATSAs, all non op staff, Band 5, Band 4, Band 1... Who cares what position you are in NATS.. You need a pension... And no matter what your wage, the new pension deal will not be as good as the existing one. Thats the fact we all have to remember...
(Oh and by the way, in my humble opinion, if people in Band 2 units want Band 5 money, move to the south of england and revalidate... Then you can have it! I personally would leave my band 5 unit for a return to my origins (band 2 unit) , but cant get it because it is full of people who are happy to be in the regions and near their families) Last I heard LACC were gagging for atcos... Everyone here agrees its short of staff...
having just spoke with a union rep on our watch, although not involved directly with the pay talks. he seems to think that the union has the balls to call for a strike..... hmmmmm, still not 100% convinced.
he also said that we will know by the end of august the outcome for all of this. so hopefully not long to wait for the first offer of stiffing us.....
Have you got anything sensible to contribute to these forums. There are ATCOs, ATCEs and all other grades at the CTC.
As for the thread, I would suggest a 1 year deal RPI for 2009 then perhaps a 3 year deal with benefits in the Olympics year.
No changes to Pension or satifactory safeguards for those in the current scheme if changes are allowed. Though I think that would be a difficult task.
I would obviously like band 5 pay but do not expect it. What would be fairer is to narrow the ever widening gap between my Band and Band 5. You are busier and deserve more pay than me but we are upset at the huge gulf and lack of influence within the union. The big boys will always vote for themselves and sod everyone else and management know this and so divide us everytime.
However you get the likes of ROFFA declaring we (he?) is well paid and an ATCO2 top of salary is bringing home close to a 6 figure salary so we maybe should not expect a large pay rise. It's alright for some. I am on 30 odd grand less than that and I work bloody hard for it. We only get a rise because it seems to be embarrassing to NSL that airports outside of NATS pay similar if not better wages than lower band airports within, and those outside are way quieter in traffic terms. If the pension goes then can someone tell me the attraction of working within NSL especially when you are not necessarily in the part of the country you wish to be?
As for the tired old 'stop moaning and come and join us in Band 5 land' comments, we have controllers trying to do that. They cannot be given a release date for the college because of staff shortages, and the college will not interview without a release date. Another is waiting to get on an area course but because again of staff shortages cannot be given a course. And we are talking years not months. How can you plan a life like that?
We should stick together I agree and this is a put up or forever shut up moment. However band 4/5 boys, when you have the carrot dangled infront of you by management/union, because you hold the majority vote, we will see if you look at us behind clinging to your coat tails.
YAHOO......Having spent over 30 years in this job I have come across the odd ATCO that has his head up his arse........your last comment leads me to believe you are on of them!!!!!
Hootin,
Look at Guernsey.Half the movements,£15K more and less tax.Just got to live on a pricey island. Nats is leading the world in pay.Yeah right.
Did you know that a Band 5 Atco can retire on more than a Band 2 takes home working multi ratings.
It makes me laugh the the Band 5's are saying stick together,when they have lined their pockets at lower band expense for years.Here the reality is that as many people starting to leave as go to higher band units.That just makes the situation worse for those trying to get out.
We don't need to go on strike.Just wait for the unit to implode,that should do it.
outside nats companies are starting to pay more as they dont have a workforce of thousands draining the profit by sitting at desks, emailing eachother, designing new and utter rubbish procedures when they know jack all about ATC, claiming everything on expenses and spending literally thousands on meetings at hotels when they could use barrons personal chocolate factory that is ctc..... maybe we should start recruiting oompa loompas?
i do not believe we are the one and only when it comes to the company, but they... and some office types seem to have forgotten that if we dont work, or work as well as we do with 'goodwill' extra validations etc means we dont get paid by airlines and no one gets paid full stop. the respect from within the company for atco's at all units seems to bee diminishing each year, current negotiations seem to be reflecting this.
i know of plenty of people at my unit looking further afield now to dubai etc if the next pay and pensions negotiations go south... but not before they will make the company suffer by giving back valiadations and refusing to train etc..... sorry if you dont like it, but this is what is happening on the front line.
outside nats companies are starting to pay more as they dont have a workforce of thousands draining the profit by spending most their time on breaks, having petty squabbles amongst themselves, demanding systems that do their job for them, claiming overtime and AAVAs for every single addition minute and spending literally thousands building sleeping accommodation so the oompa loompas can sleep and be paid.
I didn't mean any of that but I am afraid kinglouis probably meant what he said :-(
we didnt ask for the sleeping building, and most of us didnt expect it to actually be built. we currently have the same sleeping arrangements as we have always had, that was good enough for me and most others i know.
as for most of our time on a break, yes we have a lot of breaks..... next time you fly and the atco involved has a raging airmiss as he/she has been sitting there for hours on end and is knackered just so they dont appear lazy i hope you wont mind too much. we are governed by the law the hours we work, not our choice mate.
as i stated, i dont think we are the only ones in the company, by all means come get a headset and give it a go.
a few weeks ago i had a long chat with some nice people at their request to talk about P-RNAV SID's. after about 45 minutes i asked if they had seen a radar replay of the airspace they wanted to change or even plugged in..... guess what, hadnt even crossed their minds as they didnt see it relevant... bloody brilliant.
and last time i checked, it was operational staff (and not only ATCOs) who make the majority of the profit. so goldfrog, if and when (subject pay and pensions outcome) my colleagues and i hand in our extra 'free' validations we do to help out the company as according to you we do nothing for free, why dont you come pick up the slack and do them?
Here in Germany one of the guys from the upper management mentioned that it's not the ATCOs (or operational staff) earning the money, the guys writing the bills are the ones.
Guess it is the same view in every company, the management sees the controllers as a overpaid bunch of lazy guys, not following their visions for a brighter future. Even the problems between the 'low band' and 'high band' ATCOs seems to be the same, as far as the pay differs, the whining of the guys that the union isn't doing enough (however the won't leave the sideline and would offer to some work for the union) is like a refrain from the tunes over here.
Good luck for the negotiations, get as much as you can, holding back wouldn't be honoured in the future. But I'm an outsider and it's your 'game'...
and last time i checked, it was operational staff (and not only ATCOs) who make the majority of the profit. so goldfrog, if and when (subject pay and pensions outcome) my colleagues and i hand in our extra 'free' validations we do to help out the company as according to you we do nothing for free, why dont you come pick up the slack and do them?
Because I am currently working ~50 hour weeks to try and deliver two of NATS top 10 projects on time and cost optimised and to my user's satisfaction
You don't have to work 50 hours a week, stop taking 3 hr lunches, going for meetings about meetings about procedures for meetings that mioght take place if procedures can be determined for meetings.
You don't have to work 50 hours a week, stop taking 3 hr lunches, going for meetings about meetings about procedures for meetings that mioght take place if procedures can be determined for meetings.
Goldfrog,
In between your meetings, don't forget about facilitating cost-optimized workshops to look for solutions to challenges!
And always ensure your cost-optimized workshops are populated by Information Solutions Co-ordinators and Superusers who have attended appropriate On-boarding Sessions!!
Nats is leading the world in pay.Yeah right.
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