ATC IssuesA place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.
Voluntary Overtime.Flat rate of between £350 and £600(I think) per day before tax depending on your unit banding.Non pensionable.Nats couldn't function without them.
AAVA - ATCO Additional Voluntary Attendance (think that's the right way round!). Basically an overtime shift.
fisbangwollop -
You're being a bit harsh on people who do the odd AAVA just because you choose not to. You have over 30 years in the company? That makes me conclude you are at the top of the scale.. it's more understandable for someone at the top of the scale, who has done a lot of years, not to want to do AAVA's, especially as the money you get for them is not really an overtime rate at your salary.
However for someone who is only 2 or 3 pay spines up the scale, it's actually a nice little boost to their wage.
Why should people stop doing AAVA's just because you don't agree with them?
I fully agree that if, and when, the pension issue comes to a head then everyone should seriously think about working to contract for a fortnight - i.e. no AAVA's etc, but until it comes to a head, why should people lose out? AAVA's are a choice and if a concerted effort to not do them is deemed a good way to demonstrate how the company needs goodwill, then that should be done en-masse, with a specific aim. Not doing them anytime for the hell of it will achieve nothing.
Yahoo
Yes the company does seem to needlessly waste money on functions etc that the majority of coalface workers never get to see, but it does not waste enough to afford to pay us a whopping pay rise. Pensions are a big burden on any company - for an employee no to realise that is short sighted.
I would love a big pay rise and an intact pension - however I truly believe that both cannot be achieved this time round. We get paid fairly well, whatever band unit we are at (though all of us always want more) - the pension should be the thing we try (and succeed) to keep alive.
What NATS needs to understand is that there are many ANSPs out there who are short of staff - just as we are. However in recent months many of these ANSP's have greatly increased their wages etc.
The reason many people stay with NATS is because of the pension; at the moment going to Dubai etc is not financially worth it long term because of lack of pension etc. If our pension gets eroded, more and more people will realise that they will be better off elsewhere.
NATS have a history of being short sighted - just look at the way training stops and start because one year we may be fairly flush with staff, but chop rates and retirements are never taken into account, nor is the lead time to train someone from scratch. NATS need to realise that if they screw with the pension, there will be an increase in the amount of qualified people leaving.
As an aside and in no way am I suggesting this... but if we allow new joiners to be given a worse pension, they may well get their own back when the new pension scheme members are in the majority. A cynical and morally corrupt ATCO might just start 'chopping' for pension security to keep the amount of new people in low numbers. A very possible scenario when you consider the actual way training takes place - much of it is subjective, especially during live OJTI.
What we and the union need to ensure is that we do not get to that stage. One NATS one pension is the Unions own motto, maybe as union members we need to be more proactive and seek out our union reps - not to hassle them, but to let them know that there is a huge number of us who will not take this lying down. If we just sit by and not make our feelings heard now, we may end up having to take a vote on choices which are far from ideal.
I freely admit that I do the odd AAVA here and there, and I am at the top of the ATCO 2 scale, and as the scheme is voluntary I think that is my choice to make. I also do not feel guilty about this as I feel that in last four or five years, our pay rises have been fairly good and our pension remains intact.
I also see AAVA's as a bonus which I use to enhance my quality of life away from work and it is not a necessity. I also respect that there are reasons why others do not want or need to do extra shifts (double ATCO salary, travelling etc), that is their choice too.
However, that said, when it comes to T & C's, pension and pensionable salary increases not meeting expectations. Then we have to look at what we are doing that is based on goodwill and AAVA's, without which NATS could not operate efficiently and would be penalised millions by the regulator each year.
In the short term, I think that the union should be looking to obtain more satisfactory suggestions by the management at the next meeting on 14th August, otherwise perhaps it would be a good time to consider whether we wish to volunteer services for AAVA's in September or October. As the summer PSS which generally finishes at the end of September, would mean that without AAVA's, the September roster would not work and capacity would fall well short of what was promised to the airlines under the OPA.
October would also come under serious pressure. Otherwise we may have missed the opertunity to make our intentions felt and show management that we are willing to play hardball!
In the long term, IFACTS training outside of our normal roster pattern should be considered a no no!
If NATS had been paying the proper amount into the scheme for the last two or three years whilst boasting about profits, would we be asking these questions now?
Anotherthing: I applaud your clear understanding of the issues under debate here. I have to take issue with you on one point however, I have been in NATS and its predecessors for nearly 37 years and I cannot remember a time when controllers were "grossly underpaid". When compared to other sections of the coalface, controllers have always been well rewarded.
On other issues: A pay rise of RPI+1% will still produce a substantial rise for those controllers whose salaries are nearer the top of their 13-step pay scale. How would a compression of the pay scales sound - a higher percentage sliding rise for the bottom of the scales?
On pensions, a radical idea could be to cap the maximum pension payable, index linked in the same way as at present, to say £35k p.a. This would limit future liabilities.
As for NATS saving money by not having away days and feel-good presentations, why oh why has the ATCO Towers accommodation (sleeping) block been built at great expense at Swanwick?
I would love to see a work to rule by ATCO's - you would not get in the car park when they all have to turn up for work!!
I agree - grossly was too strong a word - however in the past 10 years or so, ATCOS (in particular) have seen an increase in wages well beyond any RPI... I don't think obscenely so - I think that we are in no way overpaid. I think the decent wage rises we have had have brought us up to an almost fair wage. (Take away the pension though and that perception changes drastically. Many people see the pension as a payment in arrears).
This has been down to the negotiating skills of the Unions that so many people on here (who have not got off their backsides to become reps), regularly whinge about.
I have always been of the belief that is you are unhappy with something and are in a position to try to do something about it, then you should. If you can't be bothered, then you have no right whingeing! This exactly my beef with those who snipe at Union reps from the sidelines yet won't muck in and offer to do ome work.
that means staying to the end of every shift... be careful what you wish for.
more or less the norm on my sector with EGs rendered obsolete by spin shifts, early starts or late finishes.
We'd have needed another 20+ controllers to have covered the shortfall made up by AAVAs in TC in July. Overtime is very cheap labour for NATS, even more so if you add training costs, pension contribution, etc.
One of our guys did an AVAA,then had an incident on that shift.Maybe fatigue was an issue.Got the rating suspended and needs retraining.That's what you get helping NATS management out.AVAA's ain't worth it,well not at this low band unit anyway.
Anotherthing: Thank you for recognising what was probably an overstatement! and as usual your point is well put. I am interested however in your opinion that controllers are only just receiving a "fair wage". What determines "fair"? Who are you comparing it with? I note you used the word "obscene" in your reply. Although the context is that you don't think the rises have been obscene - it must have been in the back of your mind as an appropriate word to use.
I have to say I was more than a little amused when I read that in a previous pay round NATS senior ATCO's got a huge pay rise on the back of a reduction in the pay for student controllers as any rise had to be "self financing". Excellent negotiating as this will of course reflect through in final pensions - which they would be a whole lot nearer on time served.
The capping of pensions I mentioned in my previous post would prevent this from happening. Of course contributions would be capped to meet the maximum pension to be paid.
Before I get going on AAVA's (at Area52's request!) can you clarify one point for me? Is overtime paid for the hours worked in addition to the AAVA for turning out on a rest day?
AAVA's are paid at a flat rate for the whoel shift, though there are 1/2 AAVA's as well (obviously for half the shift). There is no hourly rate on top it's a one of payment.
As for obscene, you keep picking me up on my use of over the top words!! That was again over the top, but an outsider may think the way our pay has risen dramatically over the past 8-10 years is obscene. It's well above inflation with some very good deals even recently. However before these rises we were not in receipt of a great wage (though I admit, we were not grossly underpaid!!)
I think it's a fair wage in that I do not think we are overpaid by any means - a fairly direct comparison would be to airline pilots... when you consider workloads etc I think an airline captain and above gets a much better renumeration than an ATCO at the top of the scale.
I also do not think we are greatly underpaid, it depends who you compare us to. For the responsibility we have, I do not think another £10k or £15k would be unreasonable.
It's extremely difficult to quantify - who do you compare yourself to? Firemen/Nurses/Armed Forces - we compare very favourably... Pilots/Salesmen/bankers (not management) - we compare badly to...
It is a very difficult thing to quantify and the best way to think of it is do you feel very underpaid or overpaid?
If not then it's probably a fair wage, the use of the word fair does not infer that it is correct, just in the ballpark
Anotherthing: You should have noticed the little red fella sitting above my post! You can guess that there was a little devilment in there too!! But another £10 or 15k !! That is more than my daughter gets for a 50 hour week looking after a lot of ATCO's children at a local nursery!!
Thanks for the clarification Area52. So what does the AAVA work out to be per hour then? £65? Has there ever been a case of 'if I go sick you can get an AAVA for covering me and it is my turn next week'? The budget for AAVA's at Swanwick is reported to be the equivalent of 50 average ATCO's salary for a year (30 top of scale). This is nearly double what is being spent on ATCO Towers (bedrooms). An opportunity for inappropriate behaviour to proliferate if ever I saw one.
Are there discussions going on to introduce a shift pattern that properly distributes the Ops rooms staff to meet traffic levels? More during the day fewer at night? That would reduce the need for AAVA's surely? Or should this be the subject of a new thread?
Last edited by stevebbh : 7th August 2008 at 15:04.
When you use words like "we" and "us" are you refering purely to the privledged one's at band 5 units who earn near enough 90k anyway? Or do you include us lowly curtain pushers at the quiet backwater units?
I work at a band 5 unit (TC) - never hidden that fact and I have also never hidden the belief that although I think there should definitely be a differential in pay between some units, I think the banding system per se is unfair.
I think that all ATCOs are well paid, I don't believe £100k would be too much for a true Band 5 unit (in answer to SteveBBH), however although fairly well paid, I believe some lower band units deserve more money. However that is subjective on my part and not an argument I am willing to get into - not because I am scared I will lose it, but because all units at lower banding feel they should be better paid - not neccesarily at band 5, but more than they are. I have my views as do others - we are all entitled to them - doesn't mean my views are correct.
Suffice to say - I believe a pay differential is fair within NATS, but I do not believe it is done fairly at the moment. Do I know how to fix it - (I don't mean a quick fix of paying lower bands more immediately) - the answer is no.
SteveBBH
I did notice the devil, as it happens, however you were right to pick up the use of sensationalist words such as obscene and grossly!!
However as I stated above - I don't think a £10k rise for Band 5 to £100k top of scale would be over the top. However I sympathise with your daughter - as I stated in previous post, you can compare with any number of different jobs/responsibilities to make it fit any argument. (I have a cousin who is a palliative care nurse for cancer patients.. gets paid mid £20k for a harrowing job I know I could not cope with - do I think that's enough - of course not)
AAVA per hour at a band 5 unit ranges from £78 to £61 per hour depending which shift you get called in for - thats approx £47 to £36 per hour after deductions.
AAVA's certainly at TC are not biddable - you get asked on a rota system - if you are eligible through SRATCOH then it's whoever holds the correct validation and is top of the list... cascading down until someone accepts.
If you are off sick, I believe there is now a thing in force where you cannot get an AAVA for 2 weeks afterwards.
As for the amount of AAVA's maybe equating to 50/30 average ATCOs possibly true figure, however by using AAVA's you have enhanced flexibility - one ATCO might only be valid on a couple of sectors, whereas from within the pool of AAVA's you have validations for every sector.
To man the OPS room fully at all times would actually cost the company an awful lot more by using full time staff than it does by using AAVA's - because ATCOs are sector specific.
Night time manning is vastly reduced and the people who do not do nights 'spin' onto other watches, thus complementing numbers... this alleviates some of the problems but not all.
Have you never thought that NATS are being sneaky and the benefit of ATCO Towers is the production of future ATCOs' ?
However how as ATCO's do we pay for our salary increases through our savings? We cant work more hours, we still need state of the art kit (or atleast kit that was state of the art when it was ordered a decade ago!)
Anotherthing: Ha ha ha!! ATCO Towers a future controller-making strategy - I don't think NATS would think that far ahead!! Nor have they thought it fully through I fear! And thank you for putting me straight as to the meaning and function of a spinner, I often wondered.
Me me me me: well said in your final paragraph! The total salary bill has to be found from within the business and it is often job cuts and greater pressure to work longer hours that is put upon those at the bottom end of the business that funds the top end pay rises.
Think on this - 3 ATCO's getting an extra £10k (2 if £15k) means that there are two less MSG7's to support the day to day running of the Ops room. (Not all support staff are ATSA's). Who will do your replays, LCE's etc? It is all too easy to bandy around what may seem like a relatively small figure (to you) that is the entire income of another just as important member of your own support staff. Rant over...
.Got the rating suspended and needs retraining.That's what you get helping NATS management out.AVAA's ain't worth it,well not at this low band unit anyway.
and as usual your point is well put. I am interested however in your opinion that controllers are only just receiving a "fair wage". What determines "fair"? Who are you comparing it with? I note you used the word "obscene" in your reply. Although the context is that you don't think the rises have been obscene - it must have been in the back of your mind as an appropriate word to use. 
?
And thank you for putting me straight as to the meaning and function of a spinner, I often wondered.
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