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Why is ATC not an international business???

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Why is ATC not an international business???

Old 20th Aug 2007, 22:00
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Question Why is ATC not an international business???

Hey,

Well i've been in the ATC business for about 5 years now and well i gotta say i love the job its great.....i wouldn't wanna do anything else except maybe pilot hehe but well maybe in a next life time.

Well the only thing that really frustrates me is the fact that ATC is just not like any other job........we don't have the possibility to pick up a position in a different country even though we all mostly do the same work....keeping the sky safe right!!! I've talked with pilots and well its pretty much the same for them. One licence form one country is not recognized by a different country. (And well i'm talking more of the Europe and US and other countries). I hate to say it but we pretty much follow the same regulations. I know that additional training is always involved but don't we all have to train even if we transfer within our country? On the pilot side well to me it seems that well once u learned to fly a plane well its like riding a bike so why this big difference between all these countries???

What also comes to mind is that what if you have a succesful partner? Like what if your wife or husband receives a great job proposition but for that she/he needs to relocate abroad? What happens to the qualified ATC/pilot?
Forget finding a job in your area of knowledge unless you are ready to go back to day one!! And well first you need to find that company that will accept you.

Overall it is really ashame to even have ICAO because nothing is international about our jobs really.....well that is my opinion.

I would love to hear from other ATC/pilots on this issue and of course any real life situations that could counter and enhance my knowledge of the aviation world. Thank you.
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Old 20th Aug 2007, 22:58
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Compare, so called "ICAO" standards throughout the world and therein lies your answer.

The facts are that standards still differ greatly from country to country and, for example, whatever the EEC may dictate regarding freedom of the individual to work in any other EEC Country excercising their professional qualifications, the standards of some countries just don't match up to others.

How many non UK nationals, who have qualified as ATCOs in other countries, have managed to meet UK CAA standards and get jobs here? Very few is the answer.

Its not a case of our profession being "International", it's meeting the highest standards and making sure everyone complies with that at every level, all the time.
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Old 20th Aug 2007, 23:28
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In reponse

I understand that we are not all on the same standard however we all do follow the basics. And it doesn't seem right in my opinion that somebody qualified in Europe should not be able to transfer and re-train into a U.S facility and vice versa. I know that security items come into play and also being a citizen or not but overall what i'm getting to is that well any company or agency we shall work for well really has all the power to animate the puppet show in this case. For exemple on the pay we all receive and the hours we may have to put in because the facility we work at might have staffing problems. They can actually do whatever they want because where will you go? I know for ATC memebers in Europe well you don't have many chances if any at all. And well overall i'm a bit bitter because the problems in the U.S can easily be encountered in Europe since most ATC agencies are under goverment budgeting i believe.
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Old 21st Aug 2007, 01:12
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Politics, jealousy, envy, we do it better than the French/Dutch/Germans/(insert your pet hate here) - probably the biggest problems. Our own Jerricho should be most qualified to speak on this.
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Old 21st Aug 2007, 05:59
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Having now been associated with ANS on 3 continents (well, 1 continent, a small island and a big island), Lon is pretty much spot on. Every provider proclaims "World Leader in Air Navigation Services", and has it's own systems and standards, and will defend itself to the death. Personally, I believe the way systems have almost secularly evolved in different countries around the world certainly has a great deal to do with it.

For example, here in Canada, to enter Class D airspace VFR, a pilot can simply establish contact with ATC, and can happily trog on in unless specifically told to remain clear. Try that in the UK and see where you end up. Look at the different transition altitudes used. The London TMA has a transition of 6000 ft/FL70. Australia uses 10,000/FL110, Canada 17,000/FL180. There is no ATSOCA here in Canada (RIS/RAS? Try explaining that one to a Canuck). Different wake turbulence separation standards on final. Different rules of tower separation requirements. LAHSO is always a contentious issue. Controllers from a certain Island will heaps all sorts of gasps and groans at LAHSO, yet get all defensive when questioned about providing a Radar service outside of controller airspace. Multiple landing clearances used by the southern cousins of this continent. Phraseology is another big one..........and a great one to start some frank exchanges of ideas and viewpoints.

"Whadda mean you clear an aircraft for a change of altitude by simply telling it to 'Maintain xxxx'? That's retarded. You have to use the words "descend to" for an altitude and not the "to" for a Flight Level! Youse guys is dangerous!"

"Bull****. Whadda mean you can't clear an aircraft for an ILS approach, you have to tell them to intercept the Localiser and then descend with the Glide Path. Youse guys is archaic!"

And then there is the almighty impotent ICAO. SARPS are just that........Recommended. Kinda like the UN (it's an agency of, with a headquarters in Montreal......enough said already ). **** me, even with the ICAO definition of ISA, there is the disparity between using Millibars/Inches of Mercury for pressure setting. And we'll not even get started with the language thing. One language good, bilingual frequency bad.

elcrusoe, while I certainly applaud the sentiment, I think we're a little too far gone to steer it back.

Last edited by Jerricho; 21st Aug 2007 at 14:11. Reason: Coz me can't spell too good at 0100...........
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Old 21st Aug 2007, 06:46
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Cool

Dear elcrusoe,
I can't believe that someone needs to ask such question. Once upon a time I had conversation with guy who worked at European Commision and he was in charge of job rights within EU. And he told me that no one had created EU and free labour market for ATC and for ATCOs. It is very sensitive area( security) but what is the most important is question of local unemployment rate. Why Spanish goverment will give job me at Cannaries or French goverment will give job at Cote Azur. The best places are reserved for the best nation sons and daughethers. As someone who doesn't believe that shortage of controllers exists please explain me why we will hire bloody foreigners. Believe or not but ATCO job is still premium job in many countries. Also there is language issue and you must know language of this country ( because no one in Europe speaks European language) and it could be problem. They always could say that your language skills are not at satisfied level even in many cases you don't need local language to work. The only bright example is Mastricht but requirements are so high that 90% of currently employed ATCOs wouldn't be able to pass first phase of OJT.
If you have more such questions I will be ready to give answers.
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Old 21st Aug 2007, 08:28
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Eh, what???
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Old 21st Aug 2007, 14:17
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Originally Posted by From another thread
I don't know why people come on here and question UK procedures - we have an enviable safety record and many of our "quirky" procedures are designed to enhance safety.
All due and utmost respect to you Bren, but I think it's a great example

I'm sure there are many procedures round the world with a local twist that could be viewed in the same way.
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Old 21st Aug 2007, 14:28
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Try that in the UK and see where you end up.
Rumour has it that our engineers are working on a 'son of star wars' prototype to deal with that very problem.
And as a bonus, any 'kill' OCAS will not require the filing of paperwork.
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Old 21st Aug 2007, 15:13
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In a nut shell!!!

I understand pretty much everything everybody is saying. And well i just need to add this. We go through a hard training to get where we are in our facilities but i would have to add that some people do transfer within the agencies to other facilities. I know it is a common thing in the US not so sure in Europe or else where but come on i know that u can't compare one facility to another even in the same country. That facility does stuff different then the one you left.... U can't compare a JFK with a MIA and so on.

So knowing that we go through the hard training, don't you think that the training in another country (with more obstacles of course), is still something that we can all do. That is what a controller is made for. Overcoming difficult situations in a short timeframe.

I can bet that a controller at one of the big places in Europe could easily come to the US and train and be a perfectly usable body in the operations room and vice versa.

And well the other big problem with the language is that well in most countries all sunday pilots just speak the language of the country they fly in. So mostly VFR birds. I'm not defending the use of english or complaining of the use of another language however there are ways around this mountain. If you have no knowledge of the countries language well i know for sure that all high altitude traffic is conducted in english or at major airports everything is in english. And well if that isn't good enough well come on you know what you are asking for so if you do apply for a foreign company well the least would be to prepare for a move therefore learn the basics of the language not just for a job but out of respect for the country and the people.

But overall, this seems to be a lost battle before it ever starts however if you think about it, ladies and gents, well just keep on keeping the skies safe and well maybe someday the ATC industry might just be an open market for us all. And the dream of controlling in an exotic destination not known to you could possibly come true.......
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Old 21st Aug 2007, 15:36
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Originally Posted by elcrusoe
And the dream of controlling in an exotic destination not known to you could possibly come true.......
Ahhh, this old chestnut.

Not a dig at you mate, but I've seen this one before. Let's play pretendsies for a bit and us controllers now have the opportunity to apply worldwide for ATC positions. If everyone here made a list of their top 5 places they want to work, I'll bet there would be a quite a few similarities, probably involving medium traffic, sun, beaches and reasonable cost of living (St. Maarten anyone?). You then run into the problem of the local nationals all bidding to get into those places, and I'm sure we can all think of a unit or two in our respective countries that are hyper short staffed but many folk wouldn't readily stick their hand up and say "Yeah, I'll go there"

When I did my interviews to come here to Canada, the question was tentatively asked "So, where would you like to work.......other than Vancouver?".
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Old 21st Aug 2007, 19:51
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Well when i said exotic i didn't mean like that hehe but it would be nice hehe. But overall i think it would make the market very interesting that is for sure..........but well who knows they are always ways around things.....and well we will see how things will be in 10 years hehe maybe we won't be needed and replaced by a computer hehehe
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Old 21st Aug 2007, 20:11
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I can bet that a controller at one of the big places in Europe could easily come to the US and train and be a perfectly usable body in the operations room and vice versa.

This is happening as we type, fine people from Australia have found the way to our Ops Room http://www.eurocontrol.int/muac/publ.../homepage.html , have qualified and form part of the control staff. They remain the exception though. We are still looking for people though, just like most ANSP's.
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Old 22nd Aug 2007, 02:38
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Looking over the eurocontrol site and well don't see alot on prior experience controllers. Just wondering if the people from Aus had to go through the whole eurocontrol selection process and training or did they actually just have to take a sort of accelerated training to accustom themselfs with the different operations? Or did they benefit from the fact that they did have prior air traffic experience to skip a couple of steps?
Thanx for the info....
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Old 22nd Aug 2007, 18:12
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conversions

Howdy,

well they did need some training but the common thing done here is to squeeze them with the ab-initio courses half way through. Basically, if you start from the bottom you do so at the institute in luxembourg -as I did- and that lasts about 9 months. Then you continue the training in Maastricht -some advanced theory like getting to know the system, advance sim on the specific sectors, sector learning, etc...- and the OJT. The conversion people would start already in Maastricht, so they skip all the basic theory like met, nav, atc's abc, etc...

Just a little extra: even though it may not say much on the web we have more cases of conversions; they do exist-even though they would amount to around 5% of the total bodycount and that's an educated guess though-. However they're mostly european: we have ppl coming from austria, belgium, german mil atc, scandinavians (they were working middle east when hooked up and, talking about mobility, may be leaving for scandiland shortly).

My personal opinion: different destinations are allways possible, as long as you don't get too "picky". Just last year SA, NZ, Ozzyland were on the table and this year -if you speak danish...- copenhaguen is(was?) available.

Just keep eyes open and be ready to jump...so to speak.

Greets from neverland,
A.
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Old 23rd Aug 2007, 15:32
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thx for the info.

Hey well i just wanna say thx to everybody that took part so far in the thread.......i find it interesting to see other opinions about an item i take to heart.

Being a dual citizen with the US and Belgium well i would enjoy to return to europe and work ATC on the other side of the pond however well an FAA licence is still not considered ICAO licence which makes no sense since we are part of the Icao system but that is another issue all together. And well overall to be considered an experienced ATCO in many countries well proof of an ICAO licences is necessary. Its funny cuz when i started out in ATC in the military well i started out in Europe hehe....but oh well i might figure sth out and well for the moment i'm just going to get more experience.

So thx again people!!!!
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Old 25th Aug 2007, 12:37
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I donīt know if you are aware that now a near future international licence (within the European Union only) for ATCīos is being managed. So first you should get a licence in any of these countries to be able to develop your profession and your current USA licence should help a lot in this. Provided this you would be able to work in USA and Europe.
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Old 25th Aug 2007, 18:40
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???

Hi,


Would u have a reference for the licence or a website that talks about any of this?

Thx
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Old 25th Aug 2007, 20:20
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Don't hold your breath waiting for this, elcrusoe. For example see paragraph 5.4 of this. Although it's expired I don't think there's been much change.


Link repaired, I hope

Last edited by Lon More; 26th Aug 2007 at 21:10.
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Old 26th Aug 2007, 10:52
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You possibly can find something about it here.

http://www.sodecta.org/esarr5.htm


Though there is not anything completely steady about it yet. I expect itīll come out a success sooner or later. Just be aware of all this by checking web pages about the matter. Look it up here:

http://www.eurocontrol.int/src/publi...ge/esarr5.html


Hope all this helps you.
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