ATC IssuesA place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.
After careful consideration Gonzy I would have to say it would be entirely your fault!.....did you really expect any other answer from the dark side? You agreed to the inbound and then let all those departures taxi through the glide signal!
Anyway, you wouldn't have your "nasty" with another LL inbound because of the lateral separation you should have (even when I'm doing it), but just with the Thames / SVFR traffic underneath. Hopefully with 2 different controllers allegedly monitoring their planes, at least one of them should notice the LL inbound dipping below the glide (note the obvious advantage that I can not be in both positions at the same time!).
About the 10 check - if DEPs did not consistently say "I see the Speedbird" on first answering the phone before anyone can get a word in, then FIN might not consider it such a pointless phonecall and thus be more inclined to make it on a more regular basis - but what the hell do I know, I'm not even valid
PS are you going to have a small party when your post and your birth year are one and the same - not long to go now?
Right, up front I'll admit that I don't work LL and I don't know what TEAM is. But. I'm a bit puzzled - were you in LVPs? If not, why are you guarding the ILS critical area? In non-LVP ops surely you would only need to safeguard the sensitive areas. Or have I misunderstood something here?
I know! Should have been the other way round. It's been too long since I had much to do with aerodromes.....
Last edited by Spitoon; 15th Nov 2006 at 15:48.
Reason: Edited to note that having re-read my post, of course I got my critical and sensitive areas the wrong way round!!
Woah everyone! By 'nasty' I didn't necessarily mean an airprox.....GP fluctuations on 27L can get pretty extreme, even to the extent of full 'fly up' deflection. Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. Spitoon, Tactically Enhanced Arrival Mode is a procedure where we can land up to 6 an hour on the departure runway if inbound delay gets over 20 minutes. Departures from the south of 27L (i.e. T4 departures) taxi through the 27L GP critical area while lining up. Our Part 2 says we cannot do this if inbound aircraft to 27L are within 15 miles from touchdown. In non-LVPs on this config, we safeguard the critical area. In LVPs we safeguard the sensitive area. Tinpot: Yes, Deps might anwswer the phone with 'I've got the xxx', but the fact that FIN is ringing him is a greast indicator of the ensuing phone call, and an excellent reminder. Mossman: Agree to what? eh? More clues? How much alcohol have you consumed this evening????? I did not operate in contravention of the Part 2, no. In my short stint in Deps, I made damn sure all my southsiders were on the runway by the time the inbound got to 15 miles. Of course, that meant my departure rate decreased significantly, and had to field quite a few questions from crews I was holding back for the landers.
WHO Agreed to TEAM (assuming your GP wasn't protected.... you don't just get a 10 mile check)
We did, of course. Unless you lot don't have to ask anymore!
So you think we should safeguard the GP permanently from TEAM approval to TEAM stop? Which this morning, if I'm not mistaken, was 'enhanced' TEAM which is approved for the duration of the whole shift?
I read this thread with disbelief... IMHO it should be discussed amongst colleagues, not in an open forum because, as usual, it's turning into an unprofessional slagging match.
The 10 mile check was introduced some years back. Prior to that it had been a 6 mile check - not a spoken one but a coded ring on the direct phone line from Approach. Tower controllers in those days were trained to watched the DFTI (don't know what they call it now) and to KNOW where the approaching landers were..... The Air controller would ring and tell Approach if he had traffic which might interfere with the ILS or the #2 Director would advise the pilot that he may experience interference on the ILS. What happened to those simple procedures?
If all this is beyond you all, what's wrong with a note on the ATIS that the ILS on the departure runway may be subject to QRM?
HD, I'm afraid the days of informing a/c there will be fluctuations on the GP is long gone.
We have to safeguard the 27L GP as soon as an a/c gets to 15 DME. No questions asked, we just have to do it. It makes 27L deps in TEAM a hell of a job when you might only get 20 miles between inbounds.
Because of the set up of our ATM, with the AFDAS window (new name for the AMA) at the bottom, if you do manage to spot the inbound you might only see it at 15 miles out. Too late to rectify things if you've got a 747 just entering the GP critical area.
When APP ring up to say that they are TEAMing, can't you coordinate that noone is allowed to follow the GP above 2000'? It won't make any difference to the aircraft as we'll still be trying to follow a CDA anyway.
Just my thoughts on where you might like to start your discussion with TC OPS! (I'll let someone else sort out the worries about interactions with the helos!)
being a mere TC Area guy, I am a little confused..... if the ILS causes such a problem during TEAM, how does the likes of Gatwick (the busiest single runway airfield in the world) manage??
A serious question and certainly not a dig...... I can understand concerns if in LVPs (even I remember that far back to my college days when we did every discipline, unlike the kids now).
HD
Calm down, calm down.
I do not see any unprofessional slagging match happening here and I am sure Gonzo would agree.... the nearest to the mark was tinpot radio, but if you read his post it was said tongue in cheek.....
Maybe you have been away too long and the idea of sarcasm is starting to become a distant memory
I agree if things are going to be heated it should be in the NATS forum, but this seems a fairly civilised thread so far, with a little bit of the usual ribbing thrown in for good measure.
Oh Gonzo, just to add my pennys worth, even though I do not have a clue what you are alluding to, I say it's entirely your fault, as you work in the Golden Tower (thats a joke HD!!)
I don't work at Heathrow -so feel free to disregard this! But if the procedure is that you have to protect the glide from the time an inbound is at 15D, then surely you ought to be getting at the least 20D checks in order to be able to achieve this? It strikes me that by only getting 10D checks then you're not being helped by the procedure
f the ILS causes such a problem during TEAM, how does the likes of Gatwick (the busiest single runway airfield in the world) manage??
by lining them up from one side of the runway. or if there's something being towed from the maintenance area, tell the inbound they may experience fluctuations in GP!
I don't know how the taxiways at KK interact with their GP critical areas. We don't have the problem on 09R, as the displaced threshold means that the GP antenna is further away from the taxiway (holding point S11). 27L however has no displaced threshold, and the taxiway from SB1 is a lot closer to the GP antenna.
Hey, I only posted because to get things going, the thread was unanswered for over 2 hours (must be a record!).
Unless I am going blind, I can't even find a reference in TC pt2 that says we have to give a 10 check in TEAM, but do it cos I'm told to.
I agree with Louby that a 20 check would solve the problem, but would you want a 10 also as 20 miles is quite a long time away?
Yes, my first post was nothing but "tongue in cheek", however the point stands that with the current rules as they are Air Deps can be the only person responsible as it is only he and not approach who have anything to do with the departing traffic.
Don't worry about Mr M, I think his side of the bed must be up against a wall in his new house!!
)
me, you lot are hard work! 
