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Uninvited Guest
We were about to depart from Stansted yesterday morning when a light aircraft (Cessna 152?) made an approach and low go-around on runway 23 without talking to ATC. I was wondering what the ATC procedures are when this happens? At what stage do you stop approaches, and how far does the intruder have to be clear before you allow departures? Is your radar able to follow the aircraft to its ultimate destination?
Airclues
ps. I hope that the pilot has Flying Lawyer's telephone number!
Airclues
ps. I hope that the pilot has Flying Lawyer's telephone number!
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The aircraft executed an approach to a busy international airport without ATC clearance, and without any contact with ATC whatsoever??? Are you sure??
If you are correct then that is extremely dangerous and extremely illegal as I am sure everyone here is aware. Why would anyone do that??
A lost PPL student on a cross-country perhaps? If it was a regular flight by a PPL holder that got lost then the PIC is in serious trouble, anyone know the likely punishment for this?
If you are correct then that is extremely dangerous and extremely illegal as I am sure everyone here is aware. Why would anyone do that??
A lost PPL student on a cross-country perhaps? If it was a regular flight by a PPL holder that got lost then the PIC is in serious trouble, anyone know the likely punishment for this?
Why would anyone do that??
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Or could the C152 have been kept on the APC frequency because the ADC had no reason to speak to him? Thus no one on the TWR freq would have heard any transmissions. This does happen at other airports, so it's possible it happened in this case.
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No, the aircraft is believed to be flown by a pilot that was unsure of his position and believed he was final for EGSC. Three aircraft were broken off the approach for him. Still its just one of the 190 unauthorised penetrations of Controlled airspace that have happened around the London TMA so far this financial year!
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davedek... You sound mightily amazed, which suggests you are not a controller! We could fill plenty of books with stories of PPLs getting lost and causing major problems. I was on watch when a Flying Instructor decided to show his pupil Windsor Castle one sunny Sunday morning - the carnage which ensued was amazing. I don't know if he was prosecuted but the punishments are (or were) pretty mundane. If someone who can afford to fly gets a couple of hundred £ fine it's probably small change.
ATC can track wildies (as we call them) but only for so far. If the aircraft is low it will soon go out of cover. Of course, if it has a transponder switched on that can help.
The excuses are brilliant: "I was flying xxx VOR but they seem to have changed its frequency so I was 20 degrees right of track".... "I was following a main road but my map must have been out of date".... "The plane had just been serviced and they couldn't have re-set the gyro correctly". The guy flying from Denham to Elstree, who ended up 3 miles east of White Waltham heading southwest was the best: "I must have misread my compass". And a CL-44 (yes!) went straight through the London Zone once at low-level. He'd taken off from one of the airfields north of Heathrow heading for Lasham and the controller at his departure airfield said something like "Cleared to Lasham" (meaning cleared to change frequency to Lasham). Pilot interpreted this as "cleared direct track to Lasham).
You've gotta believe it..............
ATC can track wildies (as we call them) but only for so far. If the aircraft is low it will soon go out of cover. Of course, if it has a transponder switched on that can help.
The excuses are brilliant: "I was flying xxx VOR but they seem to have changed its frequency so I was 20 degrees right of track".... "I was following a main road but my map must have been out of date".... "The plane had just been serviced and they couldn't have re-set the gyro correctly". The guy flying from Denham to Elstree, who ended up 3 miles east of White Waltham heading southwest was the best: "I must have misread my compass". And a CL-44 (yes!) went straight through the London Zone once at low-level. He'd taken off from one of the airfields north of Heathrow heading for Lasham and the controller at his departure airfield said something like "Cleared to Lasham" (meaning cleared to change frequency to Lasham). Pilot interpreted this as "cleared direct track to Lasham).
You've gotta believe it..............
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Similar thing happened yesterday afternoon at nearby Luton. The unknown aircraft flew through the 26 climb-out before tracking back towards Bovingdon and disappearing. All departures were stopped for a short period.
Coincidentally, the Luton-based police helicopter was in the area at the time - don't know if the crew were able to 'book' the zone infringer who must have sh*t himself when he saw it!!
Coincidentally, the Luton-based police helicopter was in the area at the time - don't know if the crew were able to 'book' the zone infringer who must have sh*t himself when he saw it!!
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Sometimes it just comes down to "The law of Sod" and or human error. I was invited for a chat after infringing Aberdeen Zone one bright sunny afternoon with a visibility of fifty miles. I am an "air traffiker" with hundreds of hours experience but I am unfamiliar with the local area. My passenger is a very senior BA captain who is very familiar with the local area and we were just "sightseeing" having flown up from Goodwood. I think that my passenger will tell me when we start to get near to the Aberdeen CTR, My passenger knows that we are well inside the zone, but thinks that I have said something in "air trafficese" to allow us to fly inside the zone. Result: Interview with SRG, bugger!!!!!
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So.... what's the best thing to do if you find yourself on short final for a major airport in error?! Land and wait for a follow me truck, or go-around and go home. I think I know what the safest option would be - land. What do others think?
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5milesbaby
The tower did that. However, the people at the holding point and the ranger guy didn't need bino's as the aircraft got down to about 100ft before the go-around.
The reason for my post was that I was interested to know whether there are any set prodedures for this sort of incident (without giving away any state secrets of course). Do you put the landing aircraft back into the hold, or do you vector them clear of the intruder? It must be difficult when you don't know which way the intruder is going to turn. Also, what separation do you need before allowing the first departure? This subject has never come up on my many visits to ATC Centres.
Airclues
The tower did that. However, the people at the holding point and the ranger guy didn't need bino's as the aircraft got down to about 100ft before the go-around.
The reason for my post was that I was interested to know whether there are any set prodedures for this sort of incident (without giving away any state secrets of course). Do you put the landing aircraft back into the hold, or do you vector them clear of the intruder? It must be difficult when you don't know which way the intruder is going to turn. Also, what separation do you need before allowing the first departure? This subject has never come up on my many visits to ATC Centres.
Airclues
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They don't come any stranger than this...
Check this out.
http://aaiu.ie/upload/general/3606-0.pdf
Strange, .... but true.
Radio Controlled model aircraft runs out of reciever battery power, servos & control surfaces lock in position, aircraft flies straight ahead for about 8 miles till all fuel is exhausted, then glides to a landing on link taxiway, EIDW, beside a B737.
... I wouldn't have believed it myself ...
http://aaiu.ie/upload/general/3606-0.pdf
Strange, .... but true.
Radio Controlled model aircraft runs out of reciever battery power, servos & control surfaces lock in position, aircraft flies straight ahead for about 8 miles till all fuel is exhausted, then glides to a landing on link taxiway, EIDW, beside a B737.
... I wouldn't have believed it myself ...
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nibog - same happened at a major Scottish airport a few years ago; smaller model, and didn't come from miles away, but still ended up on the aerodrome. Fortunately on a very empty patch of the manouevring area!
Squadgy - I'd be very cautious about landing without having spoken to the tower. Although you'd hope that someone would see you on final and work out there's something amiss, don't assume you'll definitely have a clear runway. Although you'd certainly see an airliner lining up in front of you, a vehicle might be harder to spot, and as for the fast jet turning in for a run-and-break....!
If you did ever find yourself in that situation, try to contact ATC and at least let someone know you might be in a zone. Although you might end up filling some forms in, the powers that be seem to be much kinder to pilots who hold their hands up and ask for some help! Plus from the ATC viewpoint, as soon as we know who / what / where you are, you cease to be a major problem to other traffic.
Squadgy - I'd be very cautious about landing without having spoken to the tower. Although you'd hope that someone would see you on final and work out there's something amiss, don't assume you'll definitely have a clear runway. Although you'd certainly see an airliner lining up in front of you, a vehicle might be harder to spot, and as for the fast jet turning in for a run-and-break....!
If you did ever find yourself in that situation, try to contact ATC and at least let someone know you might be in a zone. Although you might end up filling some forms in, the powers that be seem to be much kinder to pilots who hold their hands up and ask for some help! Plus from the ATC viewpoint, as soon as we know who / what / where you are, you cease to be a major problem to other traffic.
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Nibog: Was watching Supermodel on Sky recently; a model C17, wingspan looked about 15 feet, powered by 4 jet engines. Would definitely need brown trousers if you met that coming the other way. I believe r/c models can be fitted with a device to cut engine power as soon as control is lost
Last edited by Lon More; 5th Dec 2005 at 23:39.
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When this sort of thing happens, you really have to wonder about the competence of the instructor who authorised the flight.
Stansted looks nothing like Cambridge from the air, equally Duxford looks nothing like Cambridge, but it still happens, and similar elsewhere.
To an extent, the pilot (although obviously nowhere near competent) shares a very small proportion of the blame, it's the instructor who should be held to account.
Beat him severely I say....
Stansted looks nothing like Cambridge from the air, equally Duxford looks nothing like Cambridge, but it still happens, and similar elsewhere.
To an extent, the pilot (although obviously nowhere near competent) shares a very small proportion of the blame, it's the instructor who should be held to account.
Beat him severely I say....
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Same happened to me at CYYZ #1 for 06L when a 172 sweeps in and lands unannounced and without contact. Just prior to seeing him, I started to see airbii for 05 & 06R starting GA's
Turned out to be an elderly PPL with a sickly grandson needing ground poste haste
Turned out to be an elderly PPL with a sickly grandson needing ground poste haste
It happens. Back in the 70s(?) a light aircraft managed to mistake Gatwick (DC10 City, nice long tarmac runway, etc etc) for the nearby grass airfield at Redhill !
Then again, once upon a time, didn't a DH Chipmunk(?) manage to land at Heathrow ........ without being noticed?
Then again, once upon a time, didn't a DH Chipmunk(?) manage to land at Heathrow ........ without being noticed?
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reporting to be inbound the wrong airfield
An episode from my airfield this summer.
A foreign VFR Cessna had filed to land at Narvik airport(see map below) A local uncotrolled airport. His transponder was in and out, so I couldn't see him on the scope. Neither did the VDF point in the right direction, due to reflections from mountains. On his initial call, he reported "I am inbound your field". I asked him to confirm inbound Evenes(callsign for Harstad/Narvik airport). He confirmed this. I cleared him inbound the field, to expect RWY 17 for landing. The VDF pointed due north at this time. his correct pos, was north-east. He reported 5 miles north of field, and I gave him landingclearance. He replied cleared to land RWY17. I still couldn't see him, and the VDF pointed northbound.
Two minutes later:" Ehh I am on short final, confirm RWY 19, is there a RWY 17 too? VDF pointed due east at this time. The Cessna was on short final to Narvik airport, not Harstad/Narvik airport. I made a call to Narvik and asked if they had any traffic. Narvik is often used by D228s and Kingairs. Luckily they didn't have any at this time.
Red line, reported track
Yellow line, actual track
A foreign VFR Cessna had filed to land at Narvik airport(see map below) A local uncotrolled airport. His transponder was in and out, so I couldn't see him on the scope. Neither did the VDF point in the right direction, due to reflections from mountains. On his initial call, he reported "I am inbound your field". I asked him to confirm inbound Evenes(callsign for Harstad/Narvik airport). He confirmed this. I cleared him inbound the field, to expect RWY 17 for landing. The VDF pointed due north at this time. his correct pos, was north-east. He reported 5 miles north of field, and I gave him landingclearance. He replied cleared to land RWY17. I still couldn't see him, and the VDF pointed northbound.
Two minutes later:" Ehh I am on short final, confirm RWY 19, is there a RWY 17 too? VDF pointed due east at this time. The Cessna was on short final to Narvik airport, not Harstad/Narvik airport. I made a call to Narvik and asked if they had any traffic. Narvik is often used by D228s and Kingairs. Luckily they didn't have any at this time.
Red line, reported track
Yellow line, actual track
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<<Then again, once upon a time, didn't a DH Chipmunk(?) manage to land at Heathrow ........ without being noticed?>>
Sure did.... but there again, a US registered DC-8 landed at Heathrow and as he finished his roll out said "x"%^~# We're s'posed to be at Gatwick".
For he who asked...... ATC attempts to provide separation from unknown traffic and it's usually possible to keep the landing sequence going, even if people are routed all around the sky.
The answer, surely, is good flight-planning - make sure you have a list of frequencies for any airfields on or close to your planned route. If you become unsure of your position for Lordy's sake USE THE RADIO and talk to someone, even if it's 121.5. In my experience, ATCOs will fall over backwards to help someone who admits he's lost... but if they later find someone who hasn't spoken to them but caused mayhem then the roof falls in, and rightly too.
Sure did.... but there again, a US registered DC-8 landed at Heathrow and as he finished his roll out said "x"%^~# We're s'posed to be at Gatwick".
For he who asked...... ATC attempts to provide separation from unknown traffic and it's usually possible to keep the landing sequence going, even if people are routed all around the sky.
The answer, surely, is good flight-planning - make sure you have a list of frequencies for any airfields on or close to your planned route. If you become unsure of your position for Lordy's sake USE THE RADIO and talk to someone, even if it's 121.5. In my experience, ATCOs will fall over backwards to help someone who admits he's lost... but if they later find someone who hasn't spoken to them but caused mayhem then the roof falls in, and rightly too.