ATC IssuesA place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.
Hi, on the DVR 8 M (i think) departure the SID altitude is 6000 ft. with 2 restrictions, one at 4000' and one at 5000'. On departure I called "out of 2000 for 6000" and the controller advised me the altitude is 4000. I told him the SID altitude is 6000 with 2 restrictions. What do you want to hear? The first restriction altitude or the actual SID clearance altitude?
4000'. there may be traffic climbing out of heathrow, only just out of 4000' and in your vicinity when you call. for you to report climbing to 6000' can be quite a shock.
Looking at it pedantically you could be judged to be correct but you're not climbing to 5000' or 6000' until you have passed the appropriate DME range.
Bit of a technicality this one as your right when you say cleared atltitude on sid is 6000 (with two stop offs). From a controllers point of view as these are effectively stops rather than "pass not below" we like to hear 4000 as your climbing altitude because the climb to 5 and 6 is a few miles away. This is due to interaction with LL outbound crossing over you who go directty to 6000 so you can understand why we panic when you say climbing 6000.
As I say a bit of a technicality but in short, report climbung to 4 Hope this helps.
From a controller's point of view I find the response astounding! If the aircraft is cleared to 6000' on the SID then I would expect the pilot to call climbing to 6000', restriction or no restriction. If you want to hear the aircraft call climbing to 4000' then why are they not cleared to that initially?
Simple question: What do you have set in the MCP when you first get airborne? I suspect it is 4000ft, which you will amend to 5000ft and then 6000ft as you pass the various DME points. Or maybe VNAV will do it for you.
Whatever, you are initially climbing to 4000ft and that is what you should report. The reasons for it have already been given.
By the way, you are not "cleared to 6000' on the SID ", bekolblockage. The SID chart explicitly shows mandatory level-offs at 4000ft and 5000 ft, unless (verbally) cleared by ATC.
Your argument would be like saying that just because a STAR shows an expect level of FL80 by HON into EGBB that you should call that as your cleared level even if you are actually still at FL380.
I stand corrected if that is the case. I did not have the chart in front of me at the time and took Togalk's statement as correct. So what level are aircraft actually cleared to on the ground at clearance delivery time?
Eyeinthesky, Simple answer, 6000' on the FCU. A SID is not like a STAR. If I take off and all the Dep controller says is "continue on the SID" my final altitude will be 6000' without having to hear anything else from him. And, Yes, I am cleared to 6000' on the SID. The clearance delivery controller doesn't give out alititudes. From Jeppesen chart EGKK 20-3C "WARNING-STEPPED CLIMB: Due to interaction with other routes pilots must ensure strict compliance with the specified climb profile unless cleared by ATC"
So, like the first two well informed (obviously controllers) guys said, I am technically correct, but after hearing their point of view I can see why they want pilots to call the first restriction.
Whoa! Now that I've looked at the chart and you say there's no mention of an initial altitude on Clearance Delivery, I'm back with you Togalk. ( word of caution, as my location indicates, I'm not a LGW Dep controller) Definitley climbing to 6000' in my reading of it. You may have a ROC that means you never level at 4 so that restriction would be obviated.
These are restrictions/requirements not cleared levels in my book. You most definitely ARE climbing to 6000'.
Also eyeinthesky, if you're telling me that in the absence of any other instruction airborne, the aircraft will end up at DVR R280/ D33 at 6000', then I would expect the aircraft to call on climb to 6000. That is NOT the same as a STAR expectation level - not around here anyway.
TOGALK, I suspect you fly a "bus". The problem with setting the higher figure is that if you come out of NAV (many different reason for that), the autopilot will now just see 6000ft.
Right way up I was waiting for someone to say that. I do sometimes put the lower altitude in, but I was just making a point about the clearance altitude. But that is a topic for another thread.
Interesting response from one controller about wanting to hear your first climb altitude and not your actual clearance altitude. Over here we would be questioning if we heard an altitude other than what you are actually cleared too either on a SID or STAR with step ups or downs. We know what your steps are and are also required to ensure that you have the correct clearance limit altitude...
What I want to hear from you is callsign, sid, passing altitude and initial cleared altitude...because that's what my rules tell me I have to know!
From the MATS part 2:
"On first contact with the departure controller, pilots following instrument departures are required to report their callsign, SID designator (if applicable), current level and initial cleared level. Where a pilot omits to pass any of the above on first contact, they are to be requested by the departure controller to provide the missing information before executive instructions are issued to the aircraft."
So on a Lam/Cln/Dvr off westerlies, I want to know that you are initially climbing to 4000, as this ensures you should be separated from the LHR traffic.
However, as correctly pointed out by others, you are cleared to 6000, with the appropriate stop offs on the way.
Clear as Mud?
Great.
Warped Factor, of course we won't be mandated to check the SFL though will we.
Cheers, N
"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."
Don't know what a CLAM is (apart from a particularly tasty shellfish) but as far as STCA is concerned there is no relationship to FDP. This function is based on RDP information.
Linear Mode
