Preppy

Flying back to LHR from BFS on Xmas Eve I attempted to listen to the LHR ATIS whilst overhead Liverpool. This was virtually impossible because earlier on in the day some bright spark had changed the EDI ATIS to the same frequency and you can now hear both at once!
Anyone out there own up to this cock up!

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

Well.... I would strongly advise getting a wx report elsewhere when you're that far out and waiting until a bit closer 'til you check the ATIS. I say this for a very good reason - you simply would not believe the number of crews which have gone for the wrong runway at Heathrow after the pm alternation. We have long put this down to them checking the ATIS when they're 200 miles out, basing their briefings on the runwat given on the broadcast and then not assimilating anything else they hear about the new runway. It doesn't happen quite so often nowadays since we started putting an alternation "warning" on the ATIS broadcast before the changeover.. (It did happen just last week, though, with an LHR based operator!)

Incidentally ATC also suffers from frequency congestion. One or two very hot radar frequencies round here are tower frequencies at quieter places elsewhere. Often - contrary to AIP recommendations - we get crews calling those places from ten thousand miles from touchdown asking for the weather... meanwhile two 747s are hurtling towards each other and the little window in the side of my head which reads my age is going round like a turbo fruit machine....

Preppy

We are instructed to do our approach briefing approximately 5 - 10 mins before the top of descent. i.e. approximately 180 miles out. It's a time of low workload and gives you the opportunity to complete the FMS set up etc. So approaching Heathrow from the North, I had to listen to the Heathrow DEPARTURE information! IMHO this is a total nonsense and either LHR or EDI should change their ATIS frequency asap.
Anyone know who in the UK is responsible for frequency allocation.

Special VFR

"Anyone know who in the UK is responsible for frequency allocation."

Directorate of Airspace Policy, CAA House, Kingsway.

Chilli Monster

Preppy

You mean the info that is on a frequency meant to be used on the ground, hence the fact that Edinburgh's can be co-assigned with total impunity (supposedly). You listen to that particular frequency that far out and what do you expect to happen? Does the phrase DOC mean anything

CM

static

chili, suggest you read the postings again.....

Preppy, I agree with you.

HAM and MUC are also on the same freq. Same problem.

Regards

PPRuNe Radar

Agree with CM here.

The ATIS has a published DOC, outwith which it should not be used. Why ?? Well as we've already had to introduce 8.33 in Europe due to a lack of frequencies they've also had to be limited in range in some locations as well so as to free it up for someone else in another location.

Now of course if your aircraft had ACARS then you could download them direct onto a bit of paper and not have to listen out in a location where you shouldn't be But the beancounters don't always see that point of view, maybe because crews such as yours tell them in good faith that they can get the ATIS 250 miles out.

Incidentally, your beancounters don't even have to shell out for the AIP now, it can be found here. The DOCs will be published for each airfields frequency in here under the entry for the individual airfield.

http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/html/mainsel.htm

And if your SOPs are asking you to do something contrary to the UK AIP, then why not use VOLMET before the man from CAA Flight Ops starts asking some awkward questions ??

Happy New Year to all our readers and contributors.

------------------
PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator

Preppy

PPrune Radar

It's quite clear you ATC chaps/chapesses have little idea on how we operate modern glass cockpit a/c. Why not come with me one day and I can explain it and even attempt to demonstrate the principles of CRM!

Volmet is of little use 'cos it doesn't mention the runway in use for landing nor any warnings (eg windshear).

Yes thanks, I do know about DOC! But as the airlines have spent millions on fitting 8.33khz radios why not use this facility and allocate ATIS frequencies which don't interfere with each other? Please ask somoeone to reallocate the EDI (or LHR) ATIS frequency! Thanks.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

Preppy - as a pilot you would have far, far more clout than anyone in ATC in achieving your suggestion. We moaned for years and years when I used to work 119.9 at LHR because of QRM from Cork and Beauvais but we were always told that if pilots simply followed the correct procedures we wouldn't experience QRM. Of course, they were right! Maybe it's changed now; I don't know.

You're right - I don't know much about how the glass cockpit brigade function... but in view of a) your problems and b) ours may I politely suggest that YOUR procedures are reviewed so that the ATIS is checked much closer to the destionation?

static

Pprune Radar,

Point taken, however ACARS doesn`t supply the runway in use nor other operational information. That`s the interesting part of the ATIS.

PPRuNe Radar

Fair points from the cockpit.....and of course on checking the AIP they don't have the DOCs for ATIS published Sod's Law !!.

However, having done a little digging I can confirm that the 'book figure' for an arrival ATIS is out to a MAXIMUM of 60NM from the airfield and up to FL200. Outwith that then it's extremely likely that you WILL get interference from another station. Which you did

The original Edinburgh frequency was apparently given up to Eurocontrol for more important/urgent purposes on the basis that the ATIS at LHR should only be used within the figures above and so never the twain shall meet. I don't think this decision will be reversed. If it takes 2-3 years to get a frequency allocated I dread to think what it takes to get one re-instated !!

Frequency allocation is a constant battle, as those of us who introduce new services or sectors know. Firstly, there is not a widespread fitment of 8.33 which means that for much of the spectrum the standard 25KHz spacing remains. This 'wastes' space. And as non commercial GA traffic generally does not fly in the Airways structure it follows that most of these 25KHz frequencies need to be allocated to airfields and services where GA aircraft may have a legitimate need to communicate or listen. When you begin to add in the factors such as the airfields required area of coverage, plus the buffer zone from stations on the same frequency, and the apparent need for a thousand and one other people throughout Europe who seem to 'need' a frequency for their own use (handling companies, flying clubs, etc) then the finite supply soon runs out

I'm sure that the last time I was on a glass aircraft (the 777) we got the runway in use, but perhaps that was through a datalink message or clearance rather than ACARS per se. Many airports now also put their ATIS on a telephone number as well of course...although using your mobile to get it would be illegal !! For the major airfields, the UK ATC Centre will usually have access to such information in any case, or can ask the next Centre down the line. And it saves you leaving the operational frequency, which I understand is part of your CRM concerns.

More than happy to fly with anybody that will have me. I usually average 4 fam flights a year if I can and never cease to learn, and just as importantly, educate in return .



------------------
PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator


[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Radar (edited 30 December 2000).]

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

Isn't the active runway passed by the en-route sectors with the clearance limit? I know it is with a/c entering the UK but maybe not with those originating therein? I'm not an area man so am on stony ground!

5milesbaby

HD - negative.
I've only passed it when its quiet and I've noticed a change. As the clearance limit is the stack then thats where we get them to. As to R/T fail, then I haven't a clue, its what the ATIS says or said at the time of fail?? The only info we have is the CCTV channel which is a copy of the last ATIS so still out of date, and the last thing I'm thinking about is the 3pm change-over. I know some ACrs always give r/w after initial clearance, but most only when we are given a change by TC phone call (very seldom). However if the adme is outside CAS, then r/w often given in acceptance info to assistant, and then passed to a/c as they are cleared to leave.

Preppy

Heathrow Director: For info: today I was passed the LHR landing RWY on first contact with London Control - flying South from Scotland; not yesterday when inbound from Costa.

ALL: Preppy is a happy bunny! Today, I noticed that the EDI ATIS has reverted to its previous old frequency (132. something) and the LHR ATIS is loud and clear!

NudgingSteel

EDI ATIS is indeed back on 132.075 for the moment, but am I right in thinking that the NOTAM advising the change is only valid until something like the 12th Jan? (This date might not be quite right, but I'm convinced it's not a permanent notification. Maybe the NOTAM'll just be re-issued.....who knows)

Cahlibahn

Edinburgh

ATIS Wef 10 JAN 0800
freq 132.075 changed to 123.9,
DOC 60nm/FL200 (B19/01) (PERM)

daft fader

I usually pass the Heathrow landing runway even though there`s no requirement to do so, because if I don`t, the chances are I will be asked. It tends to save on RT/thinking time. As somebody pointed out,though, at changeover time and if our info in AC is out of date, it can lead to confusion.