OoAyVee

What are the Rules for flying in International areas outside of the airspace of a particular nation - such as in the middle of an Ocean ? Particularly below FL 120, and here, by a UAV. What Airworthiness/Navigation/Comms/Rules of the Air are there (less discussion on the UAV side, more the Rules & Regs?

Is a digitised map of the Global (World's VFR/IFR Airspace perimeters available, and if so from where, and to what accuracy (deg/mins or nm), and anyone know what format ?

Answers on a postcard - shouldn't take a minute !

Many Thanks to anyone who can help !!

ATC Watcher

Imagine this is a postcard :

Answer to Q1 : ICAO ( www.icao.org )
Answer to Q2 : Jeppesen ( www.jeppesen.com )

Cheers ,
ATCW

VectorLine

These boys could probably answer you're entire question

OoAyVee

Thanks Guys !

I am already following up with ICAO but have yet to receive a reply, hence my posting. Jeppesen I did not know about, and the bbc article is useful, so thank you both. Anyone else who can add specific technical details would be very welcome !

Thank you but keep 'em coming !



Below is a slightly more explicit reason for my asking the question that I have copied and pasted from my reply to the Military Aircrew Forum, should this help focus any replies.

Thank you all for replying !

Specifics such as the North Atlantic Class G Airspace classification are very helpful, and if you can provide similar specific detail I'd be very grateful. I have a fair knowledge of UAV and Airworthiness requirements and UAV pros and cons (such as similarity to missile, collision avoidance, redundancy etc..as mentioned above), and am quite up to speed on these issues. However, consider a Civilian Survey UAV based from a (not large) vessel (the vessel can travel worldwide), surveying a radius about the vessel and collecting a far greater range of data that presently permissible. The requirement is to know in black and white what the present AIRSPACE (not so much ATC comms etc here) Rules exist for ANY aircraft type, piloted or not, to fly from Sea level up to max FL120 (by way of example), in coastal or mid-oceanic waters (i.e. within and without of national air boundaries).

Spitoon

Maybe the reason tha you're not getting many answers is that your question is rather difficult to answer without assuming that you understand the international aviation industry. What you want to know is normally learned - and is background knowledge that is used in response to a particular context - during several years of training and another few putting the training into practise.

Don't make too many assumptions about how correct this is because one needs far more information to offer a professional opinion but here are a few pointers.

- As I recall, as far as you appear to need to understand it, all airspace is the responsibility of one State - regardless of how far offshore the aircraft may be.

- All airspace is classified from the range A through G. The classification determines what can go on in the airspace and under what circumstances (including crew qualifications, aircraft fit and comms etc.).

- Aircraft are registered in one State and (assuming the the State of registration is a signatory to the ICAO convention) other States generally accept the transit of the aircraft through their airspace. Except that ICAO doesn't have many rules about UAVs, well, only one really, that you cannot fly a UAV from one State in the airspace of another without specific authorisation. P.S. It doesn't have anything much about airworthiness of such vehicles either.

- The UK CAA has a booklet about how UAVs are dealt with on their website (can't remember the title off-hand, try a search on UAV). Don't know how much help it will be but you might find it interesting. I'm sure some other NAAs have produced something similar (but don't expect the content to be the same - everyone is on the learning curve when it comes to UAVs.

- Go and find yourself a consultant - a good one - who'll be able to discuss your question in detail. Be prepared to pay for the advice .... someone who knows all the answers about UAVs is going to be expensive!

tug3

North Atlantic 'Oceanic' Airspace above FL55 is 'Class A', (Below is 'Class G'), so you would therefore require an 'ATC Clearance' to operate above FL55.

However, by the sounds of it, the simplest way to conduct the operations you describe would be within an 'Airspace Reservation'. This would enable a 'block' of airspace to be allocated for the purposes you describe. Given how little traffic operates within the NAT at or below FL120 I doubt there would be much practical difficulty in securing a reservation for your purposes.

As 'Sponsor' of such an 'Airspace Reservation', say for example 100nm radius around the launch vessel, from surface to FL150 with a 5 hour duration, you would have to provide the relevant ATC provider with sufficient evidence and guarantees to show that the activities being undertaken would not exceed the limits of the reservation itself. The launch vessel would also have to maintain comms via H/F Radio or 'Sat-phone' with the relevant ATC provider.

Gander Oceanic (Nav Canada) or Shanwick Oceanic (NATS) people will be able to provide guidance as to what info to provide and how to go about it, so I suggest you speak to them in the first instance.

http://www.natroutes.glideslope.de/images/ABC.png

Above link shows FIR boundaries in North Atlantic (Disregard the 'Track' structure):

Shanwick OCA (UK/IRL); 45N-61N, Scottish/Shannon/Brest/Madrid Domestic FIRs-30W

Gander OCA (CAN); 45N-61+N, 30W-Canadian Domestic FIRs

Reykjavik/Iceland FIR/OCA to the North of Shanwick/Gander.

Santa Maria OCA / New York OCA to the South of 45N.

Rgds
T3

ps. Global Hawk and a 'Model' Aircraft are the only two UAVs I can recall transiting the NAT Region. (The 'Model' Aircraft was in 'Class G' all the way).

ferris

Every state would have different rules regarding operation of UAVs. They may not even be contained in aviation legislation. A UAV may not even be considered an aircraft. But it would certainly be an 'activity' covered by some sort of law. ICAO int. rules really only apply to signatories, so if your UAV isn't a registered aircraft, it may not come under those rules. Invariably, there is some other law to cover activities hazardous to other aircraft (such as laser firing etc), but whether they would be enforcable 12nm offshore is open to debate.

OoAyVee

Thank you everyone for your replies. They are VERY helpful and I'd appreciate more, or as much information as other readers are prepared or able to provide !

The SMALL civil UAV in question would most likely be registered in the UK, though could operate anywhere in the World at low altitude (FL 0 - 120 as an example, in reality much lower), based primarily from the vessel (~80kt cruise speed only)

A query I have relates to Global State airspace boundaries. Is there a map showing the Global airspace boundaries of signatory states - or, rephrased, how might one know which State's airspace you were in whilst at sea, and hence which ATC Freqs. and Personages to apply to for an Airspace reservation etc. ?

It is expected that the Airworthiness aspect of the UAV will be performed in line with the CAA's CAP 722and its revisions if this required (for size and other reasons not discussed here).

(For information to guide responses following Spitoon's point, I had professionally been involved in Military Test Flying on the Engineering side for a few years and accumulated a fair degree of Airworthiness and general Aviation knowledge over that period, though not comparable to that of ATC or Military/Civil Aircrew, for example.)

Spitoon

How SMALL will it be? If it weighs under 20kg it will be classed as a model aircraft (in the UK) which might be of some help.

Airspace boundaries are shown in the Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) for each state. I'm sure I've seen maps showing the airspace 'ownership' across a Region but I'm not sure where the came from - possibly the ICAO Regional Supplementary documents.

CAP 722 covers more than just airworthiness and I guess you'd have to follow everything if you wanted to operate the vehicle in UK airspace.

You might find it easier to do development work within the airspace of a State that has a lot (relatively speaking) of experience in the operation of UAVs - there are a couple that appear to be well known within the UAV industry.

Whipping Boy's SATCO

OAV, give the relevant desk officer a call on 020 745 36543, I am sure he can answer all your questions.

PS. Ver 3 of CAP 722 will be re-issued in late summer with some more guidance.

OoAyVee

Thank you guys ! Am already in contact with CAA Desk Officers, have emailed ICAO (no reply yet), and will obviously need copy of AIP (just do not have this as yet). As per CAP 722 I'll await the new version, so thank you - and yep, have read present issue of CAP 722 so am aware of its coverage. However, although <20kg in practice there are issues with flight control (e.g. autonomous or remote), max allowable range and ceiling, for example, and fact CAA covers UK airspace only really here - hence a part of reason for asking the international rules aspect (for all aircraft types at low level and UAVs/Remote Controlled aircraft)

Thanks for all your help ! Hope all's well with you !

PPRuDe

Hi

The previous postings give the impression that the first UAV crossing of the North Atlantic was a model aircraft flown Canada to Ireland

The first Atlantic crossing by unmanned aircraft flew 3270 km in 26h 45m from Newfoundland to SCOTLAND (20-21 August 1998)

The Aerosonde weather-reconnaissance aircraft departed Bells Island Newfoundland landed on South Uist in the Scottish Hebrides, becoming the first unmanned aircraft (and, at only 13.2 kg takeoff weight, by far the smallest aircraft) ever to have crossed the Atlantic.

Flight was conducted by The Insitu Group and the University of Washington to demonstrate the emerging possibilities for long-range operations by miniature aircraft of this type.sponsored in part by the US Office of Naval Research, L3 Communications, and Boeing. The aerosonde is now in the collection of the Museum of Flight at Boeing Field in Seattle.

The original plan of landing in Ireland had to be changed because the Irish Aviation Authority required enroute position reporting, and this could not be provided without satellite communications. However the Canadian and UK authorities, after being satisfied with a set of safety provisions in the aircraft, issued special permissions.

The Aerosonde named Laima flew most of the route at 1680 m (5500 ft) altitude, staying just below oceanic controlled airspace in order to remain clear of ICAO controlled airspace. Then for the final 150-odd km she flew low over the sea to qualify, under UK regulations, as a model aircraft!
Laima's route and altitude profile were programmed onboard the aircraft prior to takeoff; the Newfoundland ground station lost contact about half an hour after launch; and the Hebrides station picked her up 48 km offshore about half an hour before landing.a gallon and a half of aviation gasoline.

The Aerosonde design was still at a prototype stage,and failures were not uncommon, Four aircraft were readied for crossing attempts. Laima was the only one of them to succeed,. three were lost at sea. Piper went down just after takeoff because of a software fault, while Trumper and Millionaire are presumed to have had mechanical failures somewhere over the Atlantic. Piper was recovered and the engine used to be displayed at Shanwick.

OoAyVee

Thank you PPrude, a very useful reply, Thanks ! I hope to contact this team to attempt to discuss with them the Airspace issues and discussions that they went up against, not least those concerning aircraft design.

Thanks again for all your effort in replying with a very useful thread !

OoAyVee

PPRuDe

OhAyVee

Glad to help a little its an interesting subject.
I had intended to give a follow up but my PC crashed.. On the subject of being PC, ICAO a couple of years back were starting to refer to "unmanned" vehicles as "uninhabited"

I take mild issue with one of the previous posts that suggests using airspace reservations, this is an eminently practical solution but gives an erroneous impression of ocean traffic below FL120 "Given how little traffic operates within the NAT at or
below FL120"

In general terms there are numerous potential operations that use these levels. I concede the comment is correct from a
controller perception as his main interest is IFR aircraft, BUT he doesnt always know everything operating below in class g
airspace nor even within class A airspace if it is operating under special procedures.

In a long winded fashion i am saying dont go away with the impression that you will be alone at these levels and that your needs wont clash with other users on occasion..

Letsl give you a topical example,at the present time for a couple of weeks there is a large scale nato exercise with activity in
the lower levels down to the surface

this is including anti- aircraft, surface- air, surface surface, towed targets,close air support, med range gunnery, large formations of fast jets plus air to air refuel, maritime patrol, awacs tc atc...wouldnt think a uav will survive a Navy gunner etc etc
oh yes theres a full carrier strike group too

Exercises aside there are numerous run of the mill activiies, maritime fishery patrols sar ops lght aircraft ferries and a host of
activity that is given reservations...in conclusion
yer aint alone

Some suggestions, if you still have had no contact with ICAO yet you could try the NAT PCO office (programme coordination
office..Its manned by NATS at present on behalf of ICAO )...its usually a one man operation with a high workload..they usually
are custodian of useful docs for download that might give you an idea of the complexity of the airspace. The MNPSA guidance
doc although writte nprimarily for mnps/rvsm operations has some references to reservations..i vaguely recall the Faa were
authors of a guide for ferry operations..if you do a google for NAT PCO office you should get contact details..

Without doubt you should touch base with the Manager ATC (Ocean) at the Scottish and Oceanic Area Control Centre at
Prestwick aside from the day to day operation of Shanwick he is also a member of the ICAO group that develops procedures
Also at Prestwick is the Airspace Reservation Cell who have huge experience in these matters....think they are available 7 days
Better still arrange a visit...theres much to take in..the Nat over the years has seen most things Balloon races, dicchings,microlights,helicopters,glidersh
uge rogue met balloons,global hawk ops etc etc...

one final note i am not certain but I think the current ICAO position is that a UAV is an aircraft by definition.

In my first post the references to Aerosonde complying with the rules for model aircraft only worked out because after it left
ocean airspace it was contained completely in an existing danger area which was activated.
The specific rules applicable to Uav operationsare complex and i suspect there is a learning curve to go through. I amaware of
at least one service provider demand the carriage of transponder on one Uav that would have been heavier than the whole
aircraft.
Hopes this helps and the best of luck in your quest.., you might just need it

Ps Groan..whatever did i do to the formatting..hope you could read it gnite all

tug3

Whilst not wishing to move this thread onto a debate about what constitutes "little traffic" in terms of overall numbers and volume of airspace, (See comments previous post), the 'Airspace Reservation' option, should you plum for it, would be NOTAM'd as a matter of course and any self respecting airman, no matter at what FL or in what class of airspace they were operating, would undoubtedly do their utmost to avoid it.

You would not therefore find yourself in the midst of a 'Carrier Fly-off' or being 'buzzed' by a fisheries patrol flight. Should any situation arise where a flight, be it in emergency or subject to emergency assistance by SAR helo or Nimrod, (for example), needed to transit such a reservation, your being in contact with the ATC provider, (Part of the requirement for obtaining a reservation in the first place), would ensure that you were made aware of the situation and if necesary ATC would instruct you, if possible, to temporarily suspend your operations.

Any potential "clashes" of interest would be easily resolved by the powers that be by a straightforward change of date, level or location. If all you need is air and sea, then there's a lot of it out there!!!

Use the contacts suggested by PPRuDe and others and I'm sure you'll get somewhere. Do let us know how you get on.

Rgds

T3