What aircraft should I buy?

[Whirlybird]

My long term plan has always been to instruct on helicopters, then buy a reasonably cheap f/w aircraft so that I can fly when I want, get to fly-ins, and do a bit of touring now and then. I want it to be:

1) a two seater; I've considered a single seater (Minimax is nice) but I'm a sociable being really, and I don't like flying long distances on my own.
2) could live outside at least for short periods. Having just got back from the Highlands, I don't want something that I'd have to worry about if it got left out for a few days in bad weather.
3) is good on short strips because that's the sort of flying and airfields that I like. And I might even keep it at Chirk Airfield, which is a very rough field, which had runways...once upon a time!
4) is relatively easy to learn to fly, and not too challenging once you've learned. Yes, I know I'm an R22 pilot, but it takes me a long time to learn to fly new things, and I'd like any friends who come with me to be able to fly it too if possible.
5) can carry two small-average people, plus a teeny weeny bit of luggage, plus enough fuel that you're not stopping every hour and a half or so, and still get off the ground...at short strips of course.
6) preferably group A, not microlight. I really don't want to have to keep three sets of hours current!
7) preferably PFA, so that maintenance etc is cheaper. But don't tell me to build my own; I fly things, I don't build them.
8) is fast enough for touring...at least fairly slow touring, but cruises at 75kts or more anyway.
9) er...costs less than £12,000 or thereabouts.

I know I'm probably asking the impossible, but I thought I'd get some suggestions anyway. Yes, I have thought about joining/forming a group, but I've always wanted to own my own aircraft...at least for long enough to realise it's not practical!
:)

[Evo]

Not totally sure about 2, but howsabout an Aeronca? That's what would tempt me... :)

[flyingfemme]

Not really up on PFA stuff but rough(ish) strips and living outside mean all-metal and, probably, high wing. Cuts down your options a bit.
I think some Luscombes are all-metal.

[Flyin'Dutch']

An older 150 may do the job although that would not be on a Permit.

IAE are or were selling one for £10k + VAT and if it is still around they will probably take a bit less.

Few permit aircraft would be of the variety which can live outside. Having said that most aircraft can stay outside for a few nights with some covers on. Around 10k and otherwise fullfilling all the other criteria there are a few that would fit the bill. Jodel, Condor etc.

Recently bought a share in a Condor myself and it is a delight to fly. Cruises @ 80-85 kts for 4 IGH and good strip performance. Mine is on PT CofA but they can be had on Permit too.

If you are down this way and want to have a go give me a buzz (or PM)

FD

[Kingy]

Whirly,

As far as I can see it you have only a few choices, and you may have to add to the budget a little...

1. Cessna 120/140 - all metal, most are on PFA permits. Quite sought after so you're looking at 14K upwards.

2. Luscombe 8 series metal wing. Great touring aeroplane. A reputation for tricky ground handling (largly undeserved), watch out for corrosion - £12k upwards.

3. Rallye Club 100, Not PFA, but a great aeroplane. Most are no more due to corrosion, but the ones left are generally 'here to stay'. Out of fashion so your looking at £ 11k upwards but ongoing costs would be higher than a PFA plane.

Hope this is of some use.

Kingy

[Fujiflyer]

For the budget which you have allocated I would think that PFA is more or less a must. You are going to get much more for your money than you will with a C of A aircraft. Also you will obviously have more options when it comes to maintenance ie you can decide whether or not you are going to do the work yourself or pay someone else. I'm not sure about actual types on the PFA register but I don't think you'll have too much of a problem finding an aeroplane which you will be very happy with, for £12k.

I know you said you wanted to own an aircraft outright (and I'm sure you don't really want me to say it ;) )but I would still give serious consideration to joining a group (or even setting one up).I went through the same debate with myself a few years ago and whilst the idea sounded really nice the reality was (is) that I would be permanently dreading the huge maintenance costs. Even in a group of 7 of us its far from cheap. I budget on the basis of about £700 per month (includes £120 hangarage + £150 loan repayment for the original capital), even then the extras like away landing fees, renewals get "forgotten." For this I get a decent 4 seater IFR machine which cruises at 110kt. I fly between 30 & 50hrs a year.


FujiF

[SlipSlider]

Whirly. I can only say that Evo is right! :D

This is a rather tidy Aeronca Chief that is currently for sale.

http://www.aeronca.co.uk/ForSale/FSbutf.htm

This example has an 85hp engine which gives even better short-field performance, and would meet every one of your criteria (flexing no 9 just a teeny bit...).

Re point 2, leaving an Aeronca outside for a few days is certainly OK, but imo none of the PFA classics should really be left outside permanently, even the metal ones like Luscombes. Quite apart from general deterioration and sogginess, there is the constant worry every time the wind gets up!

Aeroncas are probably amongst the easiest tailwheel aircraft to fly, and if you can fly an R22 should be no problem!! :ok:

Let me know if you'd like more info.

Slip

[gasax]

C120s have fabric wings, C140s are all tin but apart from one or two are all C of A machines.

The same goes for Luscombes - virtually all of them are fabric winged. They are also not great strip machines as they have a very narrow undercarriage which is not renowned for its robustness.

You can get around the couple of days outside with decent covers - but they are not cheap (or that light or small!).

The obvious choices would be modern alloy permit machines, Zenith 601 etc but your budget does n't come close. Really 12k doesn't leave you much room to maneourve - you're in the 'take what you can get for the money' area.

Of course if you regularly fly with someone else you could part own? And a small group usually offers good availability and a much easier introduction to the perils of owning and operating your own aircraft. With that sort of capital all sorts of machines are possible.

[big.al]

Whirly -

There's a RANS.... something or other..... that's been advertised for sale for a while at Netherthorpe for £9k. Can't remember the exact type but t'was a modern two seater, 100kts cruise, PFA (I think) tail-dragger aircraft. If it operates out of EGNF it should be able to cope with whatever grass/short field strip you were thinking of. Would this be the kind of thing you are looking for?

[FlyingForFun]

Kingy (and Whirly and gasax),Luscombe 8 series metal wingI seem to recall that only the later 8 series had metal wings - the earlier ones were metal covered with fabric? A while back, when I was looking at buying an aircraft, I had a very similar list. Wasn't too bothered about short field stuff, but I needed something I could keep outside, and I wanted a tail-dragger. I narrowed it down to the later Luscombe 8s, and the Cessna 120/140 as Kingy says.

Then I realised that this was far too small a selection to be able to have a realistic chance of finding a good one, and decided to buy into a group instead! :D (By finding a group which already had hangar space I got around the problem of finding space in London, so the need to have something that could live outdoors went away and the choices got much bigger.)

FFF
-----------------

[Dan Winterland]

Groups are the way ahead. Your capital outlay is smaller therefore you can go for something a bit bigger and better. Your overheads will be reduced, it will already be established with a base and may possibly have an engine fund.

And if it's a well managed group with bookings on line, I doubt you will see your flying curtailed by the other members too much.

But go for a small group - no more than six. Take it from me, any bigger is a right royal pain in the :mad:

[Kingy]

FFF,

I stand corrected It's the C140a that is all metal.

As for Luscombes - Post war '8's used an all-metal wing, but there was an option of a rag wing also. I believe that the majority of Luscombes in the UK have the all-metal wing, as at fly-ins they tend to out-number the rag wings about 2-1..

Moving away from all metal aircraft, may I recommend a Taylorcraft BC12 as a very efficient touring aircraft - Mine does 100mph on 3.5 GPH and has 6 hours endurance! £12K would buy one.;)

Reading Whirly's post again I see that she does not specifically want a taildragger so I'm gonna be uncool an recommend a Rallye Club again also - Great plane... One of the very few cheap planes that you can fly from your short grass strip, arrive at a regional airport and not feel (and look) like a member of the grumbleweeds in.

Lots of great pireps here...! (http://airbum.com/pireps.html)

Kingy

[Whirlybird]

Thanks everyone. This is all really useful stuff - looks like a Luscombe, Aeronca, Rallye Club, or Rans something or other. Or maybe join a group...but there aren't many up here anyway. I'll keep looking, and listening to suggestions. And maybe go fly a taildragger somewhere to see what I think of them. Oh, one thing I left off the list - I'm not tall enough to swing a prop, so it'll have to be electric start, or possibly one of those cord pull thingies like lawnmowers (dunno what you call them).

Slip, thanks for the link; that's a nice looking aircraft.

Anyway, no rush. This is probably next year's project; getting established as a helicopter instructor is still this years. :ok:

[QDMQDMQDM]

Choose tailwheel, Whirly -- it's just more fun. I don't know why. And a lot more useful.

Yopu could pick up an Auster for a little over £12K or in that region, but then you would have to deal with a thirsty, maintenance hungry Gipsy. Good aircraft for the money. Noisy, rattly ******s, though.

David

(P.S. I can't believe 'b*gger' is censored. How PC is that?!)

[MLS-12D]

Yes, definitely tailwheel is the way to go. ;)

For the price, I doubt that you could do much better than the Chief brought to our attention by SlipSlider.

[LowNSlow]

QDM x 3 it doesn't have to be a Gipsy, there are Austers out there with the svelte, Avgas sipping Cirrus as Whirly knows. It wasn't that noisy was it Whirl?

Alternatively there is the Continental powered Taylorcraft Auster predecessor. Ask Kingy for a whizz about in his.

You are tall enough to hand swing both of the above, it's just a matter of technique.

Unfortunately both of the above need to live indoors due to wooden spars and fabric coverings. Still, if suitably grouped the hangerage need not be too onerous. Plus your wonderplane won't be covered in pidgeon poo when you want to aviate :ok:

[ariel]

Hi Whirly

What's wrong with the good old 150 then!!

See you sometime.

K

[Whirlybird]

LownSlow,

I liked the Auster actually. Didn't notice the noise; I wouldn't would I - I'm an R22 pilot!!!

Are you SURE I'm tall enough - and strong enough - to hand swing ANYTHING? It's just I know a woman about my size who kept the Cub when she and her husband split up, and her only problem was that she had to get someone else to start it for her! :eek: :eek: :eek: That's just not practical. Well, I suppose I could try. I do actually like the idea of hand swinging, and of tailwheel aircraft - so much more....real, or romantic, or something. I'm just not sure if the reality would agree with the idea.

Living indoors is not a problem; I think I might hangar whatever I get at either Welshpool or Sleap, despite the extra cost, to have access to maintenance, since I don't really believe in getting my hands dirty. That might change if it was my very own...but it might not. Anyway, the only strip close by that has any space is Chirk, and you can't fly from there at weekends, and it really is short and rough for landing anyway...maybe a bit too challenging after a long flight home.

But I'd like to be able to go somewhere like Oban, and leave it outside for a few days if necessary, and not worry. And I gather you can't even do that with some (wood?) aircraft. Is that right?

This ownership thing is complicated; I think I'll need till next year to just understand it all. :confused: Fun finding out though. :)

[Flyin'Dutch']

HI Whirly,

Dunno how tall you are but my mate Jacky is about 5' and has no problem handswinging her J3 Cub.

FD

[QDMQDMQDM]

But I'd like to be able to go somewhere like Oban, and leave it outside for a few days if necessary, and not worry. And I gather you can't even do that with some (wood?) aircraft. Is that right?

As far as fabric goes, they leave super cubs tied up all year outside in Alaska. Wouldn't fancy it myself, but it is an indication that ceconite covered aircraft are quite resilient.

QDM

[englishal]

I saw a nice C150 Aerobat at Falcon Field in Arizona, lovely nick, could probably have used two newer radios though. $12,000 US, being sold as the old boy who owned it had just died.....Lovely plane though, almost bought it on my Credit card, [worrying how to pay it off later :D]. Wish I had.....

EA

[Dan Winterland]

Whirly - I see from your last post you mentioned a Rallye. I owned a share of one once. They are great aircraft - strong, excellent short field performance, easy to fly, have a good useful load, have a stick and a throttle for your left hand (the way God intended pilots to fly!) great visibility and if you get a ST, aerobatic! But they are cheap for a reason. They were built in the south of France and if you take them north of 50N they corrode. On a quite day, I swear you could hear the thing rotting!

If you are tempted, get a very thorough check done by an engineer and keep it hangared.

[LowNSlow]

Whirly as QDM x 3 says, fabric covered aircraft can live outside for extended periods if necessary but it does increase the maintenance in our damp climate. I know of a beautifully restored L4 Cub that lives outside at an airfield near Oslo that only has a cover over the cockpit and the wooden prop. Their climate is a lot drier than ours though. Also it might have been like my Cub and had an aluminium main spar in the wing.

When Austers and Tiger Moths were the mainstay of of the British flying training industry (late 1940's to early 1960's), most of them lived outside with just covers over the cockpits. Seeing how many of these aircraft have survived into the 21st Century it can't have done that much damage. An Auster covered with modern non-absorbent fabric (Ceconite or Diatex) and good paint (ie: not cracked or holed) is more than capable of being left outside for a few days without damage.

[Whirlybird]

Oooo, this is getting exciting! I think I need to go do a tailwheel conversion to make sure I can fly the things without achieving a world record for how long it takes me. I 'd better also make sure I don't need a whole car bootful of cushions to be able to see and reach the pedals - yes, I know you're not supposed to see in a taildragger, but most of them were made for people bigger than me. Ditto for prop swinging. Then I'll start thinking seriously about what to get.

I'm still considering being sensible and buying a share in something comfortable for touring, or maybe buying a share and then getting a cheap single seater too (probably microlight) - would work out cheaper doing both of those than buying any of the types mentioned above. But then I look at pictures of Austers and Jodels and Luscombes and Aeroncas and so on....and remember flying to Sherburn...LowNSlow, I think I blame you for my sudden fascination with old and interesting aircraft. You make them look so damned easy to fly too. :)

[Evo]

Whirly, cannot comment on the others but the Aeronca champ and Citabria both have excellent visibility out of the front... :ok:

[LowNSlow]

Thanks for the cpmpliment Whirly but it's cos Cubs and Austers are easy to fly, they are just a bit different in the take off and landing phase (especially the Auster)........

Regarding the hand starting, I put the prop up high to start cos I'm fairly tall, it can be positioned lower and it doesn't need that much of a flick. I saw a guy at Popham pulling the lower blade through rather than heaving down on the upper blade as I do.

That Aeronca Chief looks lovely and you can see over the nose when taxiing plus they are one of the most docile taildraggers to land (so I've been told). They are also about 10 mph faster than a Cub of the same horsepower. Seeing as this one is an 85hp engine, it might have the electric self commencer fitted :ok:

[Hairyplane]

Hi Flying Dutch - I endorse your support of the rodnoC entirely!

Having learned on them in the 70's they do hold a special interest for me. Great little plane, cheap as chips to buy (shhhhhhh! - a well kept secret!)

Love to have a go in it! Maybe we might trade rides in my yellow cabrio??

What reg is your Condor??

VBR

HP

[Whirlybird]

Slipslider,

Hmmm...just had another look at that picture of the Aeronca...it's really nice...

But...it's too expensive...I ought to do a tailwheel conversion first....this is next year's project...I ought to think about it some more...a share or starting a group would be more sensible...

But I do like it. Could you let me have some more details please. After all, thinking and looking is free.

Oh no, how often have I said that about something to do with aviation?!!!!!

[Whirlybird]

Just been having a look at some info on the Kitfox, and been reading the recent thread on it here. Seems to be cheaper than most of the aircraft mentioned above, and similar sort of performance as far as I can tell. Any comments anyone?

I'm getting organised to do a taildragger conversion!

[Floppy Link]

Whirly,
Kitfox G-LOST is for sale at Perth
£10K no offers I think the notice said.
It's in the back of the hangar with a sheen of dust, just behind myP47 (http://www.espotlight.co.uk/gbtbi) ...
Search here (http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/aircraft_register/ginfo/search.asp) for the owner.
It shouldn't require a lot of work to get its permit renewed...tyres pumped up, that sort of thing.
If you want the phone no. send a PM
Russell

p.s. going to visit that Sea Fury project next week

p.s.2 You've got the message - if you absolutely must stoop to fixed wing then tailwheels are the way ahead.

[LowNSlow]

The Kitfox and the very similar Avid usually have Rotax 2-stroke engines. Some love them, some loath them. They do need more regular overhauls than a Lycoming or Continental but are considerably cheaper to buy / maintain / operate. Also they run on unleaded rather than the expensive (and possibly unobtainable in the not too distant future) 100LL AvGas. Apparently they do not like being left un-run for extended periods of time. Neither do "conventional" aero engines really but 2-strokes are prone to bearing corrosion??? Any comments on that any of you oil burners out there :D

I'm still toying with the idea of getting an Avid as the wings fold (as do the Kitfoxe's) and you can then tow it home. Hangerage has got VERY expensive where I keep the Auster at the moment...

[SlipSlider]

Whirly, apologies for delayed response - ridiculous work hours last week then away flying in France at the weekend. What can I tell you about the Aeronca Chief? Well, firstly I should clarify that I'm not the seller of the aeroplane to which I posted the link, I'm perfectly happy with our Champ! I just think that particular example of the Chief is rather nice.....

The 65 hp Chief cruises around 80 to 85 mph, so its not fast. However, you do get to enjoy the view for longer! It uses about 3.5 gph and with maximum fuel load 18 galls has an absolute endurance of around 5 hours. 6 galls of the fuel is behind the seat, and has to be deducted from the generous max 70 lbs luggage load that can be carried there if no fuel in the rear tank. With 2 pob then fuel and luggage have to be traded off to stay within max auw, and so endurance is clearly reduced to somewhere around the 200 mile mark.

The Champ has tandem seats (P1 from the front, but only 40lbs luggage as it is further aft) and has incredible visibility to the sides and its also good over the nose, with a deep cabin, while the Chief is side-by-side which is more friendly - however, as a consequence the view out of the Chief is certainly not as good as the Champ. You sit nearer the wing in the Chief, and lower to the engine.

While the Champ has a stick, the Chief has a yoke, albeit a very '40s version in a very contemporary panel, which I happen to like. The stick is great to fly with, but does get in the way of the map sometimes. This is the Chief's panel :

http://www.aeronca.co.uk/grafix/pics/butf3.htm

Both Champ and Chief have light and effective rudder and elevators, but heavier ailerons. Take-off roll is quite short thanks to the long wings, but climb rate at max auw on 65 hp is fairly .... gentle. The 85 hp version like the example advertised is much better in both take-off roll and the climb.

Champs and Chiefs have oleo undercarriage which is less taxing than the rubber bungees fitted to many classic aircraft.

As an example of practicality, this weekend the Aeronca Club had a fly-out to France (a truly memorable weekend, but thats another story). Taking part were 4 Chiefs, 2 Champs and a Decathlon. Furthest home bases were Cornwall, Wales and Norfolk. For the 2-up Chiefs and Champs with camping gear, the longest legs were just under 2 hours. The longest leg I flew (solo with camping kit) was 2h 20m chock-to-chock from Goodwood to Abbeville, crossing Folkestone to Cap Gris Nez, in an 85hp Champ with 16 galls fuel, of which I used 8.6 galls. At the moment we use 100LL Avgas, but Aeroncas are approved for Unleaded mogas.

I hope this is not a too long or boring post, and that it covers what you wanted to know. The next Aeronca club fly-out is 20 Sept to Caernarfon which I think is near to you. If you can make it there, I'm sure a flight could be arranged!

Slip

BTW Whirly: "its too expensive" .... not if you share !!

[Whirlybird]

Slip,

Many many thanks for that.

But....I've been thinking...and looking around. I'm still pretty rusty on f/w flying, and still unsure what sort of flying I want to do; do I want to fly taildraggers to short strips, get an IMC and tour Europe, or just bore holes in the sky on nice days in something easy and unchallenging, saving the challenges for my true love - helicopters? :confused:

While I was considering all this, I found a share in a C150 at my local airfield, with an option to possibly fly a Grumman too. Something I can fly without extra training, no huge capital outlay, no organising and crash course in aircraft rules and admin. So seems like a good stop-gap measure at least. Could be arranged more or less instantly, so I get aircraft availability, and to go to fly-ins, for the rest of this nice summer (it was a nice summer till I made arrrangments to fly anyway :( ). So, I'm going to see it tomorrow, but my mind's almost definitely made up, at least for now.

But many thanks to you all for the advice and info, which I'm sure will come in useful...next year maybe.

And the prize for "What will Whirly buy" goes to.............
ARIEL!!!

[ariel]

Thanks Whirly - nice to be appreciated sometimes !!

[Whirlybird]

ariel,

And guess what - the guy organising the group had met you in Bournemouth when you were doing your PPL. Small world, aviation.

[ariel]

Whirly

I'm curious now! what was his name? (email me if you don't want to put it on PPrune.

Ps. Forgot to ask... what's my prize anyway?!

ariel

[Whirlybird]

ariel,

Check your emails.

Prize....er...wanna ride in Kilo Fox ("my" C150)?

Whirly

[LowNSlow]

Whirl do you fancy bringing KF to North Weald for the Battle of Britain Remembrance Fly-In (see sticky)??

[Whirlybird]

LownSlow,

She's off on her star annual. :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ I haven't been able to fly her since Friday....work, and had some mild bug that's going around....and now I can't for ages and ages!! :{ :{ But hopefully to anything after September.

As Genghis said to me, I'm experiencing the delights of ownership - you paid, and it's yours, but it's not available,