747 Stansted -Turn indicator?

[Loose rivets]

I know that this is an old chestnut, but a system based on the simple tied gyro, might have saved this aircraft where CRM had obviously failed. Why were turn indicators removed from modern aircraft? They showed up the most minute turns, and with a totally independent electrical supply, would buy a lot of insurance - especially if it gave a warning on going past a given maximum rate. It would cost so little to retro fit, with only a supply for charging the local battery needed.
What think you?

[Belgique]

Yes, the pilots of Swissair 111 would have agreed with you.

Their Standby Attitude Indicator OFF Flag was UP and visible at the time of impact (and left an impact imprint on the sphere/ball). The F/O had earlier remarked that he'd lost his PFD and was flying off the Standby (which was central in the panel, low to the centre pedestal). Supposedly the captain wasn't in his seat at impact (probably got out to fight the fire in the ceiling). But any way you look at it, they were turning away from the lights of Halifax and pointing overwater on a dark night with a fair amount of cloud around.

When you run out of attitude references it's nice to have a turn needle in front of you. Without it, you are definitely going to lose it.

[Notso Fantastic]

Might I point out that this is not the right Forum for this? It is important. Accessing from abroad on very slow connections, R & N is often the only place one can visit in the time available- better it's kept for what it's for.

So, the point you are making is when all else is failing around you, artificial horizon with nothing but the makers name on it, fire in the ceiling, other crew calling out 'what's happening', any pilot worth his salt would latch onto the one instrument that will save everybody.......a turn and slip indicator? I don't think so.

[Dan Winterland]

The ADI as fitted to the KAL Classics does have a turn indicator included in the lower part of the display as well as a slip ball. the information for the Captain's turn indicator comes from the upper yaw damper rate gyro, the First Officer's from the lower. Therefore both derive information that is independant from the INs.

[Loose rivets]

(firstly i should say that i am not sure that there was not T&S on the 74 as i have flown an older Boeing with them)

Mmm...Undercurrents of derision for that poor little instrument.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
any pilot worth his salt would latch onto the one instrument that will save everybody.......a turn and slip indicator? I don't think so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is true that crew not brought up with flying on a tied gyro will not appreciate its full potential. I have done a cloud break in a 1-11 with double versign-generator failure. (Dead FD 108s) and a flag on the standby horizon. We had VHF 1 and a lot of attention from the ground, but it truly was a non event - because of that simple device. The reason I am somewhat passionate about the subject of instrument loss, perhaps started with the loss of a Viscount (that I had recently flown) - due to total electrics failure. (The outer wings came off after breaking cloud at an extreme attitude.) In the three cases of significant failure of instrumentation in my career, I have always, without question gone to that instrument for confirmation of other indications. Also on one occasion in a 72' it was so rough that nothing seemed to agree for some moments, but the tied gyro was at least hitting the stops on both sides roughly the same amount!

The captain presumably knew about the maintenance issues, yet it seems lightly that he followed a faulty display into the ground. I hesitate to pontificate about specific accidents, as one never knows the absolute facts; however blatant things seem. But this is taken from generic research. It's probable that he was aware that something was horribly wrong during the last moments, but it is precisely the belief that he should follow that display - drummed in for many years - that will cause him to initially resist broadening his scan. When he does, it is probable that for a moment, he will not want to believe what he sees. My argument is, to see one single clear needle - slapped hard over to the left - when it should have been central-ish, is such a simple thing to act on.