EK Routes

[Jordan D]

Is there any truth in the rumour I heard, that EK are starting up a via LHR route to JFK from either October or next March?

Jordan

[akerosid]

Most unlikely, I think. Firstly, EK would use its LHR slots for more UAE flights. I don't think it has any bilateral rights from LHR to anywhere else. Secondly, they appear to have some problem in relation to FAA oversight which is the main cause of the delay to the introduction of service. Thirdly, when they do operate a service, it will be direct, using the new A340-500.

[Jordan D]

don't think it has any bilateral rights from LHR to anywhere else

True, but then would you think that Air India or Kuwait had it?!

they appear to have some problem in relation to FAA oversight which is the main cause of the delay to the introduction of service.

What exactly is the FAA oversight?

when they do operate a service, it will be direct, using the new A340-500.

I know that the A340-500 can do long, but surely that's a bit too far, seeing as a polar route seems a bit odd for that journey?

Jordan

[Voldermort]

Don`t know about the bilateral rights but they certainly intend to use the A340-500 for DXB-SYD non stop which I think would be longer than DXB-JFK/EWR (Malaysian from DXB- EWR takes about 13/14 Hrs on a B777) and usually routes over Norway then Shetland and Southern Iceland before heading south for the big apple.I had read somewhere(Airliners.net) I think that because there is no regulatory body in the UAE that was independant from the airline/airport/aviation authority that this was the reason that they would not be allowed to fly to the states or more likely because they bought so many Airbus a/c:ok:

[KiloMIke]

I think Kuwait Airways have started direct KWI-JFK services using an A340-300.

[Jordan D]

I'm not so sure about the Kuwait thing, as I read that you can still purchase tickets via LHR as an alternative to the Bermuda 4.

Surely it would also be more profitable for EK to do similar to AI ... after all AI (I heard) are likely to be starting FRA-LAX services soon.

Jordan

[Ringwayman]

There is greater chance of hell freezing over than there is of a new non-US airline plying their trade on LHR-JFK routes. Singapore Airlines have been waiting years for these rights; I believe that Air India are the longest serving airline on that route.

We will have to wait until the new EU-USA "open skies" agreement to come into play before we see any changes to the operators to the US from LHR.

[akerosid]

I agree with Ringwayman; LHR-USA is pretty much a closed shop. AI and KU are the only carriers with fifth freedom rights. KU still operates three times weekly with 777s, in addition to its two weekly nonstop A340 flights.

However, getting back to the topic, whether it's nonstop or via somewhere else doesn't matter if the oversight isn't (perceived as) satisfactory and until EK sorts this out, no US flights. In relation to the big Airbus order, they also took a shedload of 773ERs as well (don't ask me how many 777s you can fit into a shed!). These weren't "new" orders, but leased from ILFC, but since that has exhausted ILFC's 773ER supply, they'll have to order more at some stage.

Nonetheless, it's an ill wind that blows no good and as the US slips down the list, other prospective destinations can move up the priority list - Canada, Ireland, perhaps Glasgow, AMS - have been mentioned.

[rsoman]

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quote:
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don't think it has any bilateral rights from LHR to anywhere else
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True, but then would you think that Air India or Kuwait had it?!

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Yes JORDAN, Air India had it for many many years.The first flight to New York from Mumbai via London was way back in 1960.

And in case you do not know, in addition to seven weekly flights on LHR JFK they have another three to ORD as well.

Air India has a heap of unused fifth freedoms literally all over the place and this was also the reason why they now have a 5x weekly CDG EWR shortly to become daily. They have quite a few ex LHR as well which are still unitilised due to LHRs inability (or unwilllingness - depends on who you want to believe) to give suitable slots. Also the reason why BA is still stuck with 16 flights to India while LH now has gone up to 23.

But then this is an airline which started its first BOM LON service way back in 1948!

Cheers

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

There have been a couple of references in this thread to "FAA oversight". What does this mean, and in what way might the FAA's concerns delay Emirates's planned routes to the US ?

[Jordan D]

Also the reason why BA is still stuck with 16 flights to India while LH now has gone up to 23.

True, but this is also because LH now operate direct to the IT Hub of Bangalore .... BA have failed to see the market.

AI's problem is that is pulled out of LHR in a big way in the 1990s ... remember it used to operate to YYZ and if memory serves me correct to IAD (that's Washington I think!). They then pulled out of FRA, and have only just re-entered there, but as they aren't using the FRA-ORD slots, they're hoping for LAX instead.

Getting back to EK ... akseroid ... aren't EK already operating out of Glasgow ... I know they do daily (at least I heard it was daily) to BHX and MAN, as well as LGW, and 3xdaily LHR? Canada seems unlikely, though I heard they were expanding big time in Africa and also to NZ.

Jordan

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Emirates programme from the UK is I believe 3 daily LHR
2 daily going up to 3 daily LGW 2 daily Manchester and 1 daily ex BHX

Ian

[rsoman]

Jordan
I dont think you have much idea of how rights to fly internatona lroutes are negotiated. Bermuda just covers UK and US, there are quite a few countries with which UK have not been very successful in negotitating good bilaterals.
India is one such. It is not that BA "have failed to see the market" as you put it, which is the reason for their inmabilty to start more flights. The reason is that the UK India bilaterals are held up due to the fact that Air India is not been giving any good slots at LHR and till this is resolved the negotiations are held up and BA will not be able to any more flights. Virgin operates to India utilising the rights which Air india has out of Delhi and which they are not utilising. This has been agreed by the Indian government after Air India signed a commercial agreement with Vvirgin whre AI can sell a block of seats on the flights under its own code.

Coming back to EK, as I said before the opening up of a LHR JFK route is not at all easy as there are three parties involved. While the UK UAE rights are already negotitated and operating new routes will not be a problel, the matter of getting fifth freedom rights is a different issue altogether. As "ringwayman" points out, SQ has been waiting for these rights for years. AFAIK, the open skies agreement between Singapore and US allows for fifth freedom between LHR and JFK , there is a "simple" issue of the agreement of the UK government as well which is very very unlikely to come in the near future.The same reason will be the one which should be holding up any EK plans for operating a LHR JFK route. The agreement between SIN and US also provides for fifth freedom between FRA and JFK, which since the German govenment was agreeable has SQ operating a daily a service on SIN FRA JFK route (on which LH has a code as well).

Cheers

[Jordan D]

Thanks for that ... I think I get it ...!

Jordan