PPL Intsructing for Fun - ie unpaid

[DaventryCTA]

I'm a PPL with 200 hours.

Can I instruct unpaid for a flying school, or do I would I still need to do CPL etc ?
- the pupil would pay the flying school for the aircraft and I'd instruct and at the same time just enjoy the hours in the air !

[Obs cop]

If my understanding is correct, you can instruct unpaid without a CPL. You would obviously need to complete an FI's course. The basic requirements are 200 hours total with 150 hours P1.

LASORS on the CAA website can give more details than my tired aching head!

Obs cop

[Say again s l o w l y]

I think that you need at least the CPL ground school aswell before you can do an FI course nowadays.
But to be honest most instructors would rather you didn't do it for free either.

[BEagle]

You would need to have passed the JAR-FCL CPL theory exams in order to hold a FI(R) rating on a PPL with SEP Class Rating - and to have completed the FI course.

Not cheap.....

[Whirlybird]

And if you're going to do that, you might as well do the whole CPL, and then get paid the pittance that f/w instructors get. Doing that would save you incurring the wrath of paid flying instructors, who perceive it as someone taking "their" jobs...at least, that's what's happened on several threads on the subject in the past.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Whirly, That is exactly the problem. I don't want to reopen the whole issue, but how would you like it if there were a load of unpaid Heli FI's doing it for "fun" whilst you sat there and watched and lost money and hours..... Not a very nice situation I'm sure you'd agree.

[Whirlybird]

Say again,

I deliberately didn't discuss the rights or wrongs of the issue, because it's irrelevant to what Daventry is asking, and it's been covered here many times. I just wanted to point out to him how his "colleagues" would view it, that's all.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Point taken Whirly, I suppose my reaction is just an example of how emotive a topic like this can be....:rolleyes:

[Charlie32]

Agree with Beagle.

You might as well go and do the whole CPL. You only need 100 P1 to start the FI course if you hold a full CPL, and so the difference bewteen obtaining the extra 50 hours P1 against doing the 25 hours CPL flying course is in the great scheme of things negligible. Thats assuming you have not yet got 150 hours P1.

[DFC]

Related question;

If the flying club is in fact a business making a profit from flyight training, could an instructor only holding a PPL train students?

Are instructors holding PPLs not restricted to instruction flights where the only money paid by the student is the direct operating costs of the flight...i.e. non-profit.

As far as I am aware, most flying schools have the hourly hire rate for the aircraft to which they add the instructor's pay and then some extra money for themselves.....eg, PA28 £90 per hour for a PPL hire but £120 per hour dual of which the instructor gets £15.

Even if the instructor does not accept the £15, there is the question of the other £15 which the club pockets.

IMHO, the only situation where PPL instructor training works is when both the instructor and the student are shareholders in the same club or group or aircraft and the group operates on a voluntary non-profit basis.....i.e. the aircraft costs the same for a PPL as for a student dual as for a student solo and everyone including the instructor make the same financial comittments.

Regards,

DFC

[baldwim]

One reason for this scenario might be if the ppl holder can't get a class 1 medical but wants to instruct for the fun of it.

I would rather have someone teach me who was dedicated to instructing than someone just hanging around, until an airline job comes along, bored siting in the right hand seat of a pa28 or c150 all day long.

[DaventryCTA]

Baldiwn

You hit it right on the nail !!! :O

[idle stop]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you cannot any longer instruct AND BE REMUNERATED for it if you have only a PPL and FI rating.(Have recently come across an alleged case of this.) I assume that there are no 'grandfather rights' on this one.
So far as I remember, this all changed in the run-up to JAR with abolition of CPL Restricted and BCPLs. Instructors are professionals and must hold CPL/ATPL to be paid for it.

[RodgerF]

idle stop

If you were in this position, which could only have been if you had these privileges before AFAIR 1989, you could have converted at the time to a restricted BCPL. After this time a BCPL(A) was required to teach for reward, all BCPLs had grandfather rights when JAA arrived.

Edited to clarify wording.

[idle stop]

Thanks, RodgerF.
The case I referred to definitely has only a PPL. This makes his being remunerated illegal. I gather the CAA legal department has already closed any possible get arounds, such as paying the PPL/FI 'tea boy' the equivalent of 4 hours FI flying pay per day!
Fortunately, this case is not my worry...merely something recently heard on the grapevine.

[muppet]

Ok, so you can instruct on a ppl with FI and CPL ground school.

Can you instruct on a NPPL with FI and CPL ground school?

I ask 'cause I have a friend who cannot have a ppl due to medical but can have a nppl.

[BEagle]

No. Unless you wish to instruct for NPPL SLMG or Microlight aircraft ratings only.

[WelshFlyer]

Is the CPL course conversion only 25 hours? in that case I'll just do a CPL before I start instructing. especially as I'm going into commercial aviation anyway.

(but if anyone has me for an instructor, they arn't going to get someone who would rarther be flying an airliner - they are going to get a wannabe bush pilot. far more interesting - imagine "maverick" from top gun in a PA28. ( trust me I know - I have a very experianced, and fun instructor. Anyone know CFI David Lloyd?

WF.

[RW-1]

Mute point here in the US, to be elegible for CFI, one has to hold a COM licence or ATP ....

[DFC]

Regards to David and everyone at Mona FC :D

[Hap Hazard]

DTY, do yourself a favour, if you really want to know the definitive answer to your question, ask the CAA........thats what they are there for:ok:

[xriter]

Doing it for free.....Too many of us have done this in the past ....and we are all reaping the rewards...payscales that have not moved with inflation....working conditions that would be unacceptable for any other industry....and bosses and accountants that just love us....Do yourself and the rest of us a favour....Charge them for your services.Lets face it would your dentist do a freebie on your teeth....(if he does can i have his number ? ):ok:

[Sleeve Wing]

Heh, DFC, just come on the thread.
Are we allowed to know who's paying part-timers(?) £15 an hour ??

And just for the record and the support of the many good but underpaid guys and gals around, I'm strictly against any "freebie" instruction. I'm might bend and accept rates might vary dependent on experience but, No, no unpaid instruction. Thin end of the wedge.

Rgds,
Sleeve.

:ok:

[DFC]

Sleeve Wing,

The £15 figure was purely an example - I would expect that instructors would be paid more than that per flying hour in order to ensure that they are compensated for giving proper briefings at the start and end of each training session.

Regards,

DFC

[Obs cop]

Sleeve wing,

What's the problem with part timers?

I am seeking to become a part time FI. Much as I would love to be full time, the pay would not cover my current finances, so in my passion for flying I have set part time flying instruction as the next best goal I can hope to achieve.

Does this mean that I will be looked upon with distain by fellow flyers and instructors? I would sincerely hope not, particularly as I wish to instruct to pass on my love of flying, not merely to achieve hours for my own purposes.

Furthermore,

I feel sorry for those individuals who cannot attain a class one medical, and therefore cannot accept payment, but again, instruct out of a love of aviation. I am not an avid supporter of those who instruct for free, but I do feel for those who have no choice but to offer their services for free. It is all too easy to pour scorn on an individual, but the siutuation is in the hands of the CAA. In the same way that doctors are to be classed as on duty even if having a nap but between calls on hospital premises, the only way instructors will see considerable changes to the pay scales is for the CAA to revise when instructors are classed as working. Ie. Instructors should be classed as working for every hour they are at their place of work, not just time airbourne and as such should recieve remuneration for their duties in line with a minimum hourly rate. Unfortunately, people love flying so much that there will always be someone willing to undercut an opponent and anyone who sticks to their principles is likely to lose out rather than get more pay. There is nothing new in this, it's how businnesses work and without overhauling the system, the employees will always be on the losing side.

IMHO.............awaits incoming.:eek:

Obs cop

[DFC]

There is absolutely no reason to feel sorry for any potential instructor who can not get a Class 1 medical.

If all they want to do in life is instruct, have no interest in any form of commercial flying but want to be paid an appropriate wage for providing instruction then it is perfectly possible to do so with a PPL.

They can instruct, and when they gain expereince, they can if recomended they can graduate to examminer.

It's all in the rules.

Regards,

DFC

[Obs cop]

The fact that it is possible to instruct on a PPL is clear to me, however, I am now rather confused concerning remuneration.....

ANO 2000, schedule 8 states...

(b) He shall not receive any remuneration for his services as a pilot on a flight save that if his licence includes a flying instructor's rating, a flight instructor rating or an assistant flying instructor's rating by virtue of which he is entitled to give instruction in flying microlight aircraft or self-launching motor gliders he may receive remuneration for the giving of such instruction or the conducting of such flying tests as are specified in sub-paragraph (a)(i) in a microlight aircraft or a self-launching motor glider.

My take on this is that PPL holders who instruct on SLMG or microlights may recieve remuneration for their services, but PPL holder instructors on any other category of aircraft may not recieve remuneration.

Hence, my understanding was that a PPL(A) holder who holds in instructor rating cannot be paid. Thus I feel for those PPL(A) who cannot achieve a class 1 medical as this is the bar that prevents them from being paid to instruct.


Or have I got the wrong end of the stick DFC?

Regards Obs cop

[Human Factor]

Does this mean that I will be looked upon with distain by fellow flyers and instructors? I would sincerely hope not, particularly as I wish to instruct to pass on my love of flying, not merely to achieve hours for my own purposes.

I'm in a similar position to Obs cop. I'm currently doing a FIC in order to instruct part-time (for fun?) in order to give something back to the system. I make a living in other parts of aviation and I'm happy to give up some of my spare time to pass on my enthusiasm. It's not my intention to steal anyone's job and I have no intention of instructing for free as I feel this would contribute to this. The only thing I'll insist on is an employment contract and the going rate for a FI(R), mainly so I'm covered by the employer's liability insurance.

While I appreciate that instructing is a valuable way of entering the professional aviation world, relatively few people see instructing as anything other than a means of building hours. An enthusiastic instructor whose sole motivation is seeing his or her student gain a PPL whilst ensuring that a high standard of common sense is ingrained is surely a far better prospect than an instructor who will disappear off to an airline at the earliest opportunity.

[DFC]

Obs Cop,

You have hit the nail on the head.......a PPL holder with a Microlight Instructor rating can be paid for instruction.

If all a person want to do is teach and fly then 3 axis microlight instruction is the same as SEP instruction for the PPL........just as rewarding and just as much fun.

So that is why I say that there absolutely no need to feel sorry for people who by choice exclude themselves from something that they claim to want to do.

Regards,

DFC

[Obs cop]

DFC,

Good point, well made and good use of colour:}

I'll stand by my opinion, purely as microlighting doesn't float everyones boat and I don't feel that someone wishing to instruct and who can't get a Class 1 has to be forced to a specific route eg. microlights or SLMG.

Obs cop

[CaptAirProx]

Obs cop

You have a point but have you seen these new microlights coming out such as the C42 et al. They are more high tech than SEP stuff! Don't dismiss them totally.

Not wishing to discuss your medical background but my eyesight on the old system prevented me having a Class 1 so I had the old class 2 to instruct on. When JAR came in I was promised a class 1 restricted. I still have such a thing. Mine has a NJC (non jar compliant) thing on it. So I can't get a foreign ex uk ATPL etc. Have you gone down this avenue to see if you can get a restricted Class 1.

Its also worth becoming a microlight instructor then build the hours to go back to the CAA and say hey nothing damage in "x" hours now so lighten up boys and give me that Class1. It worked for me. Now I can fly professionally and instruct for fun and get paid for both.

Were there is a will, there is a way!

[Obs cop]

Captairprox,

thanks for the response, but maybe I wasn't clear in my posts earlier. I have a class 1 medical and am currently chasing my CPL with a view to then becoming an instructor. The likleyhood is that I will be financially restricted to working part time, but hey the majority of instructors supporting the flying clubs are part time.

I was merely commenting that I held a certain amount of sympathy, not shared by everyone, towards those who could not get a class 1 and therefore are restricted as to recieving remuneration.

I know the working for nothing thing is contentious, but not everyone has complete freedom with their choices, and the limitations they face should be respected rather than regarded with derision. In fairness, the increase in the numbers and the technological advances in microlights or ultralight aircraft means that more general aviation is likely to develop in this area, requiring more instructors, who could get paid on a ppl.

IMHO:ok:

Obs cop