Is it all worth it?

[madandy]

Hi guys (and girls)
I'm in need of some genuine advice as i'm feeling rather despondant at this time.
I need to know if there is any light at the end of this long tunnel?
I'll cut this long story short (ish).
I'm 29 and am desperate to become a professional pilot. I'm seriously thinking about doing the expensive (albeit comprehensive) Oxford Aviation APP Ab-Initio course but obviously with such a big outlay i'm slightly concerned. I'm in the process of getting funding together for it (Mummy and Daddy definately aren't an option for me) but at the moment it looks like I'm going to have to rely on 100% bank loan; if I can get it!
I suppose the most important question would have to be: will i get a job at the end of it (Oxford tell me i will!!!). Will I then have to pay for a Type Rating at the end of it myself? It seems like I need copious amounts of money dripping from various different crevices

I keep reading (on other threads on this site) of how many out of work CPL/IR and fATPL pilots there are and I'm worried to say the least.

I don't want anyone to make the decision for me, I would just like some good, independant and genuine advice....I say genuine because I know I may be future competition for you but would ask you to put that aside.

The last question would have to be: Is it all worth it

[Crosswind Limits]

Hi,

I was also 29 when I started. Have all the paperwork now but no airline job......yet! Instructing at weekends and run a small business in the week.

Doesn't matter what Oxford say there's NO guarantee of a job. Unless you're sponsored everyone takes a gamble with pilot training. As far as type ratings go, if things continue the way they are now, before long a type rating will be part of ab initio training and no one will bat an eyelid!:\ That will be a sad day indeed. For all our sakes I hope I'm wrong!

Is it all worth it? Only you will know the answer to that. I think if you stick at it long enough you will most probably achieve it BUT at what cost? I hear people say flying is the ultimate mistress and that's a pretty accurate statement. It's addictive and if it's in your blood I guess you'll have to give it a go but be prepared to spend a fortune and if you have a wife and family make sure they don't feel left out EVER. Also be ready for sleepless nights, waking up with a cold sweat wondering what the hell possessed you to become a pilot. There'll be lots of dark moments too, when you feel the whole world is against you and nothing seems to go right. Stick at it!

The industry is fickle and unstable and most pilots accept the insecurity that brings. When things are good they are VERY good but when things are bad, you soon reach the bowels of hell!

If you want stability and security this is not the industry for you. No one enters flying to make loads of money!

Good luck.

[Pilot Pete]

Madandy

check your PMs

PP

[moo]

madandy, i seem to remember a post with exactly the same title as yours being started only a few weeks ago, try a few searches on it. as for the 100% bank loan, well if you're thinking about the OATS APP then you're looking at a £72000 overall and I personally think that there are much better packages to be had for about half that, which would leave you with a nice sum to complete a instructor rating/easyjet type-rating sponsorship etc.
is it all worth it? It'd F###cking better be!!!!!!!!! hahahaha!!! and i'm sure it is!

[VFE]

1) I need to know if there is any light at the end of this long tunnel?
So they say. I believe them.

2) will i get a job at the end of it? (Oxford tell me i will!!!).
Perhaps not for a while but sooner or later you should get a break. Despite popular belief even the old sponsored cadets from way-back-when were not guaranteed a job after completing their training. Oxford will tell you anything to get you to part with your money. Never listen to training providers for anything other than training information and even then get it confirmed from a third party.

3) Will I then have to pay for a Type Rating at the end of it myself?
It's looking increasingly that way I'm afraid. Most airlines sooner or later will take Ryanairs lead and ask inexperienced pilots to pay for their rating. Out of the three newbies I know who got jobs this year, two paid for their rating. It's no use trying to unite job seekers into refusing to pay for ratings either. This topic has risen on PPRuNe before and clearly indicated there're plenty of eager beavers out there willing to sell their granny to get a flying job. This seems to be acceptable too so therefore the more socialistic amongst us are clearly lacking the required dedication to succeed as a pilot it would appear. It seems pointless trying to make a stand against this trend so it would be prudent to prepare yourself for financing your first type rating.

The last question would have to be: Is it all worth it?
See answer one above.

VFE.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yes, it is all worth it.

Most airline pilots you will ever meet paid lots of money and took huge gambles and worked very hard to be where they are. Few would ever swap jobs.

Its rubbish hard work lots of the time. But sometimes its wonderful. And thats more than most people can claim about their jobs.

Good luck,

WWW

[redsnail]

You'll need a bloody good sense of humour I can tell you.
Why? Because when crewing forget to book you a hotel or taxi and you are standing around waiting to get into your "room" or a taxi so you can go home you can remember just why you started this game.
Don't think I am joking? Ha! I am not. Perhaps it is better in the SLF world but in the freight world you are just another money making cog in the wheel.
Oh I forgot, crewing will also forget to book you a flight home. (When positioning).
Min rest. I love it.

[Easy Glider]

For what it's worth, I am one of the ones who did not have to pay vast amounts of money to get into this industry 15 years ago.

Would I do it again?? Never! especially if I had to pay the amount you guys have to today.

I would SERIOUSLY consider a different proffesion and fly for fun at the weekends.

The money at the end of the tunnel is just not worth the outlay.

[WX Man]

EZY glider:

I used to think that, so I took the plunge (OK, post 9/11) and went for a different career (ATC). Didn't get on with it... don't know whether it was just ATC or the whole non-flying thing, but after a few months in the ATC sim I yearned to be back flying. I still do.

They kicked me off the ATC course I was on, and the first thing I did was examine seriously whether I wanted to spend £25K getting myself an ATPL.

My conclusion? I start at BCFT in 25 days, and I can't wait!

[MJR]

Madandy,

two things:

1. Dont spend any money until you have got a Class 1 medical
2. Everything Xwind limits said is right, I thing flying is a little bit like the lottery, you have to be in it to win at it.

cheers

MJR

[Easy Glider]

WX Man,

What I am saying is that the outlay, (£25.000 seems to be on the conserative side,) is not worth your POSSIBLE renumeration at the end of the tunnel.

I am a 757/767 skipper and am painfully aware that my spending power in real terms is less now than it was 15 years ago and will almost certainly continue to decrease over the next 15 years.

My advice as someone who has "been there done it," become a lawyer and make some real money!

This game is just not the same as it used to be.

[D McQuire]

Well I've been there and done that on the old money making front and I have to say there is more to life than making lots of lolly. It may keep the wife and kids happy but it won't do much for you when you look back at 60 and say 'what if I'd gone after my dream?'. A 'what if' too many for some.

[FlyingForFun]

D McQuire - very well put, couldn't agree more.

FFF
-------------

[gabu]

No one has a crystal ball and who can say you'll enjoy it, I'm 1/2 way thru my atpl exams and am having serious concerns about carrying on.

The are literally 1000's upon 1000's of pilots out there unemployed at the moment, some with a barebones fatpl to 1000's of hours on type who are unemployed.

When I go to these god awful exams (atpls) everyones talking the big talk thinking the're Mr. charlie big potatoes but there all looking thru rosie glasses abit.

It begins to dawn on you than fanciful idea may not be the right idea, sure everyone knows some one who's got themselves a job and loves to talk about it. but at these exam venues you'll meet 100's & I mean literally 100's of people who are doing what you are doing makes you think a little i tell you.

All these very well experienced pilots, All these military jocks just waiting in the RAF until things pick up. Where does that leave you? Okay if you Daddy is a pilot for BA etc


Personally i thinking of putting of putting a down payment on a nice motor boat somewhere nice in Florida/Australia and taking rich tourists out fishing every day, charging them $60 an hour, for game fishing.

Seems a lot easier than all this B*****t and doing at the moment.

But we'll see

Don't listen to all the crap the flight schools give about oh you'll definitely get a job, yeh they'll sell you there own mother if they'd think it would convince you, you'd get a flying job.

Well I'm off to ponder the future.

[VFE]

Always makes me chuckle when a qualified and experienced pilot posts in wannabes and tells it like it is. Nobody ever listens! :D

It's easy to downplay something which most would deem exciting when you've (in Easy Gliders words) been there and done it. I played in bands for about seven years, enjoying pub lock-in's with free beer till we dropped, girls chatting US up, cash on the hip for playing music we loved for about an hour and a half each night. I gave that up because it lost the edge for me. It was becoming obvious that I was quite likely to make the break into something big when I decided to quit too so I'm perhaps more stupid than most but it was boring me.

Ring any bells regarding your flying experience does it Easy Glider?

Funny thing is - now I've had a break of about two years or more from anything remotely resembling the musical workload I had before I kinda miss it and plan to start playing again when I've got my pilot ticket but I digress......

I don't think I could convince anyone other than actual musicians that being a musician is anything other than exciting and wild but the downsides I experienced which eventually led me to drop it and follow the airline pilot dream rarely get mentioned as it's the downside to something seemingly rosy. Most things have downsides - that's life.

Money is not the main factor for most wannabe pilots just like it isn't the motivating force behind being a musician. It's the love for it which drives you and not the possible rewards so you'd do better to tell us all what it is about your working day that bores you so much Easy Glider rather than tell us all to become lawyers which most I'd imagine have zero interest in becoming.

Anyone who thinks about giving up does not have the dedication to succed in flying or music. Grasping the similarities with flying and music here? I know one thing - all those pilots I've met have one underlying similarity: determination and the 'I won't take any s**t which life throws at me' factor.

I can sympathise with Easy Gliders feelings regarding a career in aviation and applaud him for standing up and saying it's not worth following. It's the nature of the beast that most here won't take a blind bit of notice. Survival instinct if you will.

VFE.

[Pilot Pete]

I was once told by a guy at the CAA that something like 75% of those sitting in the exam halls never go on to fly commercially.

What you have to remember is that an awful lot of them are re-sitting, they are not all there for the first time. Many of them will not get all the exams in their three attempts and will give up then. Many run out of money and give up after (which is when it gets expensive.) Many get the licence issued and then give up by letting things lapse and going back to earn money doing what they were doing before. So you can see how easily it is for the number actually gaining airline pilot employment to be significantly lower than those you see in the exam halls.

The one thing that is guaranteed in this industry is that if you do not show strong determination you will fall by the wayside. Now is a particularly harsh time to be seeking that first airline appointment, but times have been like this before. The ones who stuck at it got through and do work for airlines now. The same applies today. You may not get that job now, it may take a year or two, but use that time as well as you can to gain more hours and experience anywhere, flying anything and you will be displaying the determination that will bring you the reward at some point in the future.

So gabu, it all comes down to how much you want it. You are experiencing the tough times right now and we all remember those exams and how difficult they can be. If you are not 100% committed to a flying career you will become one of those statistics. What I would say is that if you would prefer to be selling fishing boat trips then go and do it now before you commit large sums of cash to the rest of your flying training. If you have to fly then this will get you through the tough times.

As for choosing to become a lawyer or doctor or anything else because it would pay more money, well that's fine, but don't expect to have it easier training for one of these careers, especially if you're 30+. Sure there are disgruntled pilots, but I would guess that there are disgruntled individuals in every job known to man, except perhaps astronauts?!;)

Things will turn around, they always do and if you are still in the hunt and want it enough you will get a job flying, it just might take longer than wanted. The main thing to remember in the current market is to do everything possible to minimise risk of failure should you be lucky enough to get an opportunity, but then again if you want it enough you would already know that....

PP

[Maximum]

Don't ignore Easy Glider's comments without giving serious thought to their origins.

I've posted on the realities of the job before, and can completely agree with his sentiments.

I think the bottom line is, you're getting into a profession which will seriously curtail your freedoms. As long as you understand the implications of that, then fine.

This job will make huge demands on your time, your health, your bank balance and your family. It has ruined more marriages than I've ever seen.

And on top of all that, you will always remain an employee, a pawn to be used when needed in someone else's wealth creation scheme. And completely disposable when times are tough. No chance to become a partner in this business, or set up your own practice, or be creative, or diversify.

How do the airline bosses view you? For the most part as taxi drivers who don't have the wherewithall to go out and make some real money like them. Don't expect any respect or consideration from them.

Once you finally secure that airline seat, the job basically doesn't change significantly until you retire at the other end. And all you will have is memories. You carried tens of thousands of people from A to B. That's it. Nothing else to show for your labours.

Not trying to put anyone off, but be prepared for the reality.

[maxy101]

Good post Maximum !! Without wishing to sound like a wet blanket, I would reiterate Maximums and Easy Gliders´ posts. It´s certainly not the job it was 15 yrs ago when I joined, and even then I can remember the Captains telling me the same....
The job has gone progressively downhill. If you want to fly aeroplanes for a living, then great, go for it, but if I had my time again, I wouldn´t have chosen this career, given a choice between going into the city, law or running my own business.
That´s not to say I don´t make the best of it, however, it is amazing how many people at Big Airways are counting the days until retirement....

[Flying Farmer]

Just my two penneth worth, is it worth it?

Can't tell you that yet, still instructing, from where I am at the moment on a very meagre wage the answer is no.

A bit of background for you.

Am a third generation farmer, silver spoon in my mouth definately not, worked hard, really hard for twenty years to build some sort of future for myself and my family. For anyone in the know its the ultimate dead mans shoes job, work like a dog until the old man croaks, then maybe you control your destiny!

Methinks at 38, ****** this, could be an oap before it comes right and decides to down size house and retrain. What a good move it was, farming is not so good now and the family, read father, makes me redundant on 24 Dec last year!!!

So guess it depends where you are coming from, leave a well paid job to persue a career in Aviation, possibly think again, its a long hard road and I'm just on the first rung.

I want it really badly, my family depends on it, its tough, your choice, your'e up against some stiff competion.

FF

whatever you decide, best of luck it's fun:ok:

[Hulk]

can take around 10 years before to sit in an airline aircraft with a basic salary.
minimum requirement to apply are 1500h, 200 multi and some jet ot turbine.

[Easy Glider]

Try 2500h 1000 jet and boeing or airbus rating with 500h on type!!!!!

Times have changed.

[VFE]

Three of my mates got jobs this year:

Mate One: ATR 72. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.

Mate Two: Airbus A320. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.

Mate Three: Airbus A320. Accepted into job with about 250 hours.

No hope?

Attitude goes a long way I say.

VFE.

[Easy Glider]

Everyone knows a few exceptions to any rule.

More importantly, how many do you know without jobs ???

[Hulk]

VFE we do not believe you, I know 20-30 pilots with less 500h, no one have found a job since the 9/11.

[Number Cruncher]

Speak for yourself Hulk. Based on the number of postings, i know who i'd have more belief in.

People can debate till their hearts content. I think its simple. You either want it or you don't. I do. I'm desperate for it. I'm giving up the City Accountant life, as i KNOW the grass is greener on the other side. I may become poorer, I may have to spend time away from home, however, if i enjoy professional/commercial flying as much as i do training in a ****ty Cessna/Piper, then i KNOW that the remaining 41 years of my working life will be a lot more happier than the last 4 years in the Rat Race.

If you want it badly enough you will make it work and eventually it will pay off. Yes there are people who will put you off but ultimately yes, we are all Wannabes/experienced pilots but we're all different people.

[Hulk]

NC,

right, but I do know one guy who has been hired with 250h on an Airbus...even guys with 3000h do not find jobs actually.the last guy I have met who have been hired by a brit company had 1500h (pre 9/11).

[Pilot Pete]

Hulk

your experience of the job market is obviously limited. There have been a large number of jobs filled since 9/11 and some layoffs too. There has also been a number of guys hired with 250hrs or less and some from an FI background. Granted not as many as just prior to 9/11, but in no way as bleak as you make out.

It's always been tough and it is tougher right now, but let's keep some balance in this debate. Talk facts not speculation. Just because you don't know anyone who has been hired doesn't mean that someone who knows three is a liar................

PP

[Canada Goose]

Yes, I'm talking about you HULK !!

I don't normally waste my time responding to the likes of people like you ...... and I feel sure that many others have twigged that you only appear to be posting to be confrontational or whatever kick it is you seem to be getting out of it all !! I notice that you've had many postings on different forums recently, for instance you've recently posted something on Wannabees about whether Mod 1 or 2 of Bristol GS is the harder etc and how you feel most of it is easy on Mod 1 ...... well, I've not even bothered looking at your profile, giving you the benefit of doubt and assuming that the posting is genuine, then you're obvioulsy looking at obtaining an JAA ATPL/fATPL. That said, then your posting to "Is it all worth it?" is so negative for someone who should be thinking so positively at this time ..... "can take around 10 years before to sit in an airline aircraft with a basic salary.
minimum requirement to apply are 1500h, 200 multi and some jet ot turbine." ......... and "VFE we do not believe you, I know 20-30 pilots with less 500h, no one have found a job since the 9/11." .....

HULK, I'd say, why don't you pack it all in now and do us all a favour, but as I've said, it's obvioulsy a wind up !! Feel free to shoot me down in flames hulk, but I won't be responding, I've already wasted enough valuable time posting this trash !! You are the weakest link - goodbye !!

VFE ....... "Attitude goes a long way I say." .... well said !! :ok:

Ladies and Gents ..... the Goose has spoken :ooh:

[FlyingForFun]

A few random thoughts to add to the pot:

1) If you don't try, you'll always regret not trying.

2) If you don't want it enough, you'll loose out to those who do.

3) Getting an airline job with low hours is nearly, but not quite, impossible - but see number 2 above.

4) I will consider it worth it even if I never get a job flying anything bigger than a Cessna Caravan. In fact, I'd probably prefer to fly smaller stuff if only I could afford to live on the salary for any length of time, but maybe that's just me.

5) I will consider it worth it even if I never get a flying job at all. With the exception of the ATPL exams, I've enjoyed all of my training so far, and I expect I'll enjoy the rest of it too. Besides which, see 1 above.

FFF
--------------

[D McQuire]

Couldn´t agree more FlyingForFun,

Really enjoying the training here in Jerez, especially this IR stuff which I just started a couple of weeks ago. Luckily the ATPL exams are behind me :D

Hulk must have the misfortune to know the least lucky low hours guys around. Out of Jerez I could name about 25% of the grads of the last 6 months who are now flying (or about to: busy type rating) jets or turbo props. Sure its a ****e percentage but it´s not zero. Others are busting their ass looking, getting a few hours instructing, spending time in jet sims to keep current, one I know of is meat-bombing (aka parachute drops - why do people want to jump out of a/c??!!)

[ncusack]

I think the best post on this well beaten subject was posted by Pilot Pete a few months back. I will see can I find it and link it here.

Pete......If you have a link, post it again. It displayed the rough with the even rougher road to the LHS. If you could do what PP did, then you will make it.....in fact you would probably make it into NASA!!!! It was an inspirational read.
Ncusack:ok:

Found it:


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6911


It'll take a while but it's a cracker!

Ncusack

[VFE]

Hulk,

Ask yourself: what does VFE have to gain from lying? Silly boy...... :rolleyes:

VFE. http://www2.bitstream.net/~nakroach/image/gif/faintthud.gif

[MJR]

VFE,

In view of the fact that all your mates seem to get flying jobs with relatively low hours, I was wondering if I could be one of your friends, mate:ok:

On a slightly different tack, I think job fulfillment is all relative, if you have experienced nothing else all your life then the grass is always going to look greener elsewhere.

If your a commercial pilot slagging off your own occupation, thats fair enough but you're never going to convince a Wannabe that the lifestyle sucks and the pays no good. And what are you comparing it too a lawyer? a doctor? The're not really in the same ball park are they? How about a policeman, teacher, traffic warden or bus driver is this more fulfilling.

I've worked for the same engineering company for over 2O years I get a reasonable salary, 6 weeks of annual leave, flexi time, foreign travel staying in nice hotels, a guaranteed pension, retirement at 60, I finish work at 5 every day and I'm home by 10 past. Whats more when I travel I continue to earn the same hourly rate. Does this sound good to you. Because I hate it, whats more I hate myself for not trying to pursue a flying career a long time ago.

have a nice day!



:yuk: MJR

[VFE]

Admitedly I do know about twenty low hours guys and gals looking for jobs. :ok:

VFE.

[Sagey]

I strongly believe that anyone doing an ATPL or wanting to do one should go into it with their eyes fully open.

After 10-15 years in the industry it is highly likely that it is going to be just another job. Relationships and friendships are bound to suffer, you have to work odd hours, weekends (so that party/that drink may have to be put off ETC).

Needless to say I still wanna do it, I know it is going to be one hell of a struggle and finally I am saving now (after paying off student debts). I personally can't stand my job, I sit there 9-5:30 bored senseless, I hate the routine and I hate office life. I was happier working shifts in my last position even if it wasn't paid as well. There is nothing else I want to do, so I have to go for it. I don't have a partner (just split up with my girlfriend but she knew about my desire to fly for a living and was fully aware that it was likely that we wouldn't have survived once I started training). Sept 11th was a nightmare for most industries. I still know friends from Uni that haven't got full time jobs and we graduated 2 years ago. I know of one who got onto Barclay's grad scheme, starting salary was high and was made redundant 6 months later and now can't get another job. His dream of working in Banking is in tatters as well. Wages have been kept lower by the economic climate, we recently advertised for a position and had over 500 applicants many with over 10 years experience and the money was fairly low!, it is tough out there everywhere.

Unfortunately the airline industry has a massive barrier to entry in obtaining the license. Other careers do as well to some degree, but it genuinely doesn't peek over 10k. One of the major problems is that financial institutions IMO, don't fully understand the requirements of wannabe pilots, you can walk into most banks and get financial advise about law courses, accountancy training but it seems that it isn't always stretched for pilots.

The governments attitude with VAT on flight training is also disgusting, how they can't call an ATPL course vocational I will never know, but lots of things needs to be changed or there could be a major shortage in years to come.

Out of interest my father is a Dr, ex surgeon and the only advice he has ever given me is to never go into the medical profession and then rants about how it has changed, the NHS etc, and how he should have done law, accountancy instead. Not everyone is currently happy with their lot, the grass always seems greener on the other side. But I do understand the points of those that have been in the industry for 15 years plus, many sacrifices have probably been made over the years, and they just aren't as happy as they once were.

Best of luck everyone

Sagey

[FranticFlyer]

IS IT ALL WORTH IT ?

Well, I'd have to say no, not for me, anyway. I did my training in the States, did a little instruction over there and then returned to the UK to convert to a BCPL and then did a BCPL to CPL upgrade course. I then spent about 2 years looking for my 1st job, while doing any job going to keep a roof over my head and pay off my debts. When I found my first flying job as a First Officer I was obviously delighted. The 1st six months I spent working just at the weekends (unpaid) and after six months I was then offered a permanent position. Having spent £25,000 on training and worked very hard to pass all my exams and holding a professional qualification (CPL/IR Frozen ATPL) I expected to earn a salary, however, I had yet to learn that in the perculiar world of aviation, normal rules do not apply. I was to be employed by this company, however I was not going to be paid for the first year ! I know many of you would probably jump at a chance like this, and I know that many people at this airline did work unpaid, however this was something that I could not afford or was prepared to do.

Fortunatley, at around the same time I was offered a job in London with an Investment Mngt company, where I have been for 5 years now. For my first year working for this company I continued to apply for other flying jobs but could find nothing. It was around this this that I decided to give up flying and pursue a career in the City and I have no regrets. I now have a great job, earn a good salary and have managed to buy a flat in London. If I'd stayed in Flying, God knows where I would be now ? Yes, I work 9 to 5, but this means I get up at a reasonable hour and get home every night. I also have every weekend and Bank Holiday free to do as I wish. And yes I spend most of the day sitting at a desk with a computer screen infront of me, speaking on the phone, but the work is varied, I learn something new everyday and it lets me be somewhat creative. As opposed to flying a modern aircraft where I would be monitoring a computer flight system, making the occasional radio call and doing everything by the book. I am also promoted by virtue of how well I do my job and not merely by seniority.

I really can't understand why people are willing to sacrifice their marrige, families, homes etc in order to pursue a career which has such a poor lifestyle. Perhaps if you have a job you really hate, but there are many more interesting and rewarding careers out there than being a pilot. I guess you just have to be really crazy about flying, something which I guess I was not. I did ofcourse enjoy the training tremendously and I still fly for pleasure at the weekends which is all I need in terms of my aviation fix.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think flying is a bad career to have, it just wasn't for me. Just make sure that it is really what you want to. £50,000 or whatever it costs now is a hell of alot of money to spend with no guarantee of a job at the end. If you really love flying why not think about buying a share in an aircraft and fly at the weekends. Or fly off to the States for a 2 week flying holiday every year, you'd get alot of holidays for £50 G. You'll probably do more hands on flying than you ever would during a career as a pilot.

Good luck, whatever you do . If you already fallen in love with flying, then none of my negative comments will have any effect on you, I'm just trying to give another point of view, rather than the go for it at all costs, live your dreams, what if, etc...

:ok:

[Pilot Pete]

I was to be employed by this company, however I was not going to be paid for the first year

Don't know of many airlines that operate like that. Care to enlighten us?

an Investment Mngt company, where I have been for 5 years now. For my first year working for this company I continued to apply for other flying jobs but could find nothing.

Well that was during a reasonably good time for airline recruitment so you must have been doing something wrong.

I am also promoted by virtue of how well I do my job and not merely by seniority.

No airline promotes merely on seniority. If you are not deemed suitable when your number comes up you don't get it.

I really can't understand why people are willing to sacrifice their marrige, families, homes etc in order to pursue a career which has such a poor lifestyle.

If you can't understand it then you made a strange decision by trying to enter it.

And, we didn't ALL sacrifice marriages, families and homes to pursue this career. My personal career path lead to me getting married, having three kids, being put through the wringer after 9/11 and emerging the other side a better, more rounded, happier individual who has moved up the property ladder and loves going to work. Oh, my social life is just fine too thanks.

You'll probably do more hands on flying than you ever would during a career as a pilot.

We are not robots and can switch the autopilot off and hand fly if we want. Those of us who love flying do this quite regularly, even from 39,000' all the way to touchdown. Much more fun than from 3000' in a Cessna.

And yes I spend most of the day sitting at a desk with a computer screen infront of me, speaking on the phone, but the work is varied, I learn something new everyday and it lets me be somewhat creative. As opposed to flying a modern aircraft where I would be monitoring a computer flight system, making the occasional radio call and doing everything by the book.

I really can't quite see where investment management allows your creative side to flourish, now let me see, visual approach with all the automatics off into Corfu, now that allows me lots of scope for practicing my skills and gives me the buzz that I require. As for creativity I plant pretty looking flowers in my front garden and nurture them until they bloom into a magnificent display. I fly by the book because it's the safest way. I can't see how you would investment manage against 'the book' as not too many people would be happy with the way their investments were being managed.....................

I did ofcourse enjoy the training tremendously and I still fly for pleasure at the weekends which is all I need in terms of my aviation fix.

So it does draw the conclusion that spending £25,000 on commercial flight training was perhaps not the best managed investment you ever made.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think flying is a bad career to have, it just wasn't for me. Just make sure that it is really what you want to.

Couldn't agree more. It takes a certain dedication and desire to do this job. The rewards are however relative to how much you want to do it. I don't think I get a vast amount of money for the job I do and the responsibilty I take, but I love the work, don't mind the hours (and I've worked every weekend this month), had more days off in the week than you have had at weekends and have just enjoyed a great dinner party with a number of like minded friends, oh, and I'm going out to get pished tomorrow night too and then get the pleasure of hand flying 24hrs later. Bliss. Oh, did I forget to mention I have Mon-Fri off next week to recover in preparation for my next three days flying. Now what shall I plan next week.............? Three days with the family and two with the lads I think!

Don't get me wrong, it's not for everyone and there are times on the way back from somewhere like Luxor that you really think you would rather be somewhere else, but on the whole I had that feeling a heck of a lot more of the time in my previous career.

FranticFlyer, I'm sorry but your account smacks of sour grapes.

PP

[buttline]

The word desperate is the key. If that's how you feel, you have to try but don't destroy yourself in the process - there's no rush with the market the way it is right now. Can you keep working part-time and do the training part time? Be strict with yourself, maybe OATS does have some advantages (often debated), but don't pay the industry's premium prices with 100% borrowed money - that's crazy. (Having said that, I think their full time ground school is the business, I'd go there just for the ground school bit).

I love flying (just fATPL right now) but I absolutely would not get that far into debt to do it. I'd set myself a very strict rule not to borrow more than 50% of the money needed to pay for training - say 25k (that's still a decent deposit on a house in most parts of the country). So what if it takes a little longer.

I'd also try (and I mean really hard) to get into the CTC McAlpine - ab-initio training scheme as there's a job already waiting at the end of it.

Good luck, let us know what you decide! :ok:


p.s. Frantic Flyer - I used to work in the City and then on Wall St myself (Goldman Sachs). What's all that about 9-5? Is that one of those part-time paternity benefit positions I've heard about??? ;)

[FlyingForFun]

FranticFlyer,

Interesting viewpoint - different to my own, which is closer to Pilot Pete's, but interesting nonetheless.

But I'm curious. Why does someone who gave up any thoughts of commercial flying 4 years ago suddenly register on a forum for professional pilots, and make his first post in none other than the Wannabes forum?

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting that you're not welcome or anything like that, because you are. It just seems strange that someone in your position would be interested in the Wannabes forum at all. I'd expect you to spend more time in Private Flying. :confused:

FFF
------------

[strafer]

FranticFlyer - if you post is true, then you didn't want it enough.

And to all the current pilots who're moaning about their jobs earlier in the thread, why don't you do something else? Then there'd be more jobs for the rest of us.

And on a general point - it's the things you don't do that you regret when you get old.

[redsnail]

Strafer,
How would you like to be doing a job working for "x" company and you are happy with the conditions. Then "y" company buys "x" company and totally changes every thing. Rosters non existant, massive disruptions to your day nearly every day, wait months to get your expenses and now have doubt over your very job's existance? If you think roster disruptions and being thought of as a "liability" is fun, then feel free to jump right in.
The job AND the industry has changed significantly over the past 5 years. It ISN'T the industry I joined over 10 years ago.
However, I have spent far too much money requalifying myself in another country and the country I am now in won't recognise my former qualifications.

What some of us are trying to do is give you guys looking in an idea of what it is like RIGHT now. Not what it was like 5 years ago or even 10 years ago.

Some of us are even trying to change the conditions within our own companies at our own personal risk. I am not one that whinges and does nothing.

Know your terms and conditions and don't trade them for any thing. It's important to be flexible but not weak. Big difference.

I know we all dream of flying a nice shiny jet. Check out the turboprop pay and see if you can live on that. That is a reality for many of us.

[Maximum]

Listen to Redsnail - she speaks the truth.

Strafer, you say.....

And to all the current pilots who're moaning about their jobs earlier in the thread, why don't you do something else? Then there'd be more jobs for the rest of us.

.........hey Strafer, I can assure you it isn't moaning, merely trying to share experience.

As Redsnail says, the industry has changed so much for the worse over the last ten years, and at an exponential rate in the last five.

You wannabees cannot help but see the job through rose-tinted specs, as the general public do as well. But there's a huge gap between image and reality.

Even with the total dedication and love of flying that one must have to do this job (for decades in my own case), and as a trainer and checker, the realities of how pilots are worked now and the trend for the future will test your love of flying to the limit. And you'll all get older. And sitting with an aeroplane strapped to your arse when you're forty or fifty and the company still treats you like sh*t isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Yes, we can all tell you about wonderful moments in our careers, but the point is, do these fleeting, ephemeral points in time outway the rest of the cr*p?

Obviously for any given wanabee, a lot depends on what else you think you can do with your life. If it's just some mundane office job (in your eyes), then of course I can see the appeal. But there are also plenty of people in flying quite capable of achieving much more than sitting in an office (as an example) - trouble is, once you've done this job for a while, you're committed - you can't take your skills elsewhere. Bottom line, end of story.

So that's it, see the job for what it actually is, and if that's what you want, fine. But beware of its limitations.

[Pilot Pete]

Well said Maximum.

I think Max has summed it up by saying if the 'reality' is what you want then fine. If that still gives you the buzz then you have the bug.

Many industries are facing the ever onward onslaught of the financial department looking to increase margins year on year. Aviation is only different in that the margins have been squeezed again and again already. The inevitable 'margin' to be squeezed some more is staff terms and conditions. The future is already riddled with ever increasing 'nibbles' at our remuneration packages. It is hard, I accept to see this as a Wannabe, but it is reality and another 'factor' to be drawn into the equation cometh judgement day..................

Those out there who read these pages already know if they are going to get a job or not, we all have our moments of doubt, but the dedicated know that failure is just not a word in their dictionary. Those who constantly doubt are the 'dreamers' who find reality too tough to handle. They become the statistics.

Reality is not a life full of 'riches', to quote Robbie; 'beyond my wildest dreams!'

Reality is disrupted sleep patterns, time away from home, roster disruption and a bunch of people who seem to be working against you at every move............!

If you still love it, you still love it. If you don't, then you probably never really did..................

PP

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm two and a half years on the line in a 737 (doesn't time fly).

I have the best job of anyone I know. I wouldn't seriously consider doing anything else.

The job is a lot of what you make it. No job is what it used to be in any professional area. There *is* no perfect job though that doesn't stop pilots forever seeking it.

The industry will grow very nicely in the next decade. Demand for pilots will pick up and with it the terms and conditions of employment. The dark years we have experienced since the millenium are now nearly past.

I find more to be cheerful about than miserable and a lot of my friends in other professions cannot say that.

You can get a hell of a kick out of a hand flown visual approach from 10,000ft greasing it down 5 minutes ahead of schedule. Try matching that from inside an office.

Go for it,

WWW

[redsnail]

WWW,
If you wanted to get that nice 737 job right now you probably couldn't unless you PAID for the rating.
That is the point a few of us are trying to make.
At the moment, unless you are lucky or whatever, you want to fly a jet you have to pay for the rating in one form or another.

Would you still be as happy if you were flying a turboprop for half the money or still instructing? Sure, it beats stacking shelves but try explaining to the bank manager that "I know I'm only earning £16K as an FO, but I really like the view. Can I have a loan to buy a house?"

Sure it will change, I certainly hope so, but when?

[Tosh McCaber]

Ref Frantic Flyer's post

Buying a type rating from an airline, costing, say £12k, then getting a job from them, for say £20k+- (ie £15-16k after tax etc) is no more nor less than you working for them for the first 9 months for free, by the time you've paid for the T.R.

On the positive side, I suppose it gets your hours up. The only thing is- when you go to join A.N.Other Airline, will they then ask you to pay for the type rating on their aircraft??

[strafer]

To those who replied to my last post...

Possibly some of the original comments came across as more 'moany' than you intended, possibly my mail was more critical than I intended. Nuance is a hard thing to achieve on bulletin boards.

My point was simply that any pilots who're unhappy with their jobs almost certainly have the intelligence and wherewithal to do something else less stressful and better paid. I do at the moment but it's not going to stop me selling my house to pay for my flight training and taking at least a 75% pay cut to get that first f/o job. As to
You wannabees cannot help but see the job through rose-tinted specs, as the general public do as well. But there's a huge gap between image and reality.
That's not true in my case, reading these forums for a year and talking to as many people in the industry as I can has, I think, given me a fair idea of the realities of the job. However, some people are wannabes, some are gonnabes. When I'm 70 years old, a-sittin on my porch, I'm at least going to know that I wanted to be a paid pilot and that's what I became.

As another general point - Nostalgia aint what it used to be!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There are only two types of people in the world - pilots and non-pilots.

Don't waste your life being the former.

;)

WWW

[TheHustler]

Hello
Dont want to be a sceptic, but i think the main points are these:

1) Why spend 40-50K (minimum) just for a career??? esp. when you'll only earn approx 30k at the end of it (hypothetical), and god knows how many creditors youll then have!

1a) Also when you consider the jobs market (ie 10-12,000 pilots with licenses), and the available jobs, your not even guaranteed a sniff at a job!

2) That post by pilot pete..."the story from start to end" which someone referred to earlier- do you really want hassle like that? ie, running out of cash during training, waiting for lucky breaks (he was lucky!) family disruption etc etc, The BCPL /CPL upgrade course he did no longer exists!

3) Totally disregard people who say "follow the dream or you'll regret it" ,- these people surely are "dreamers".

4) Totally disregard people who say they know people who have got airline jobs with 250 Hours! As far as i know, all the major airlines want at least 800+ hours and type rating, so what r u gonna do with a JAA CPL/IR and 250 Hours? sweep the runway ill bet! then your options are twofold: 1. spend more of your money to get an instuctor rating and struggle to get a job there. or spend more money on flying hours etc to keep your licences current etc, or a type rating (only about 10 grand! and still no job)

6) I was looking into this training business, and it does only seem ot be for the "super rich" .If your six numbers have come up on the Lotto then great, but for the normal professionals thinking of a career change after 10years sat behind a desk in accounts, then i'd think very seriously about borrowing money for such a persuit. could serioulsy backfire.

7) Of the many pilots out of work, and those looking for employment a lot must be very experienced pilots with a lot of total flying hours, this reduces your chances still at interview.


in a nutshell: "despise dreams and respect concrete facts!"




:ok:

[Chuffer Chadley]

Hustler

You're absolutely right. I've seen the light, and will now persue my other dream- working in an office for my whole life. Sounds bloody brilliant.

Clearly flying's not for you, old chum.

CC

[ncusack]

TheHustler:

Get a life. Not everything in life is risk free nor should it be.

[Slim20]

Heck Hustler - if we all took your attitude where would all the pilots come from??? I am one of the mythical creatures who got an airline job with 200 hours (thank you CTC!) and, would you believe it, new faces are joining my outfit every month.

Wow, where are they all coming from? Are they growing on trees? Because according to you my man, no-one should spend on gaining a career, no-one wants pilots without 10 zillion hours and a type rating, no-one has a dream to follow...... well, people do, and they are successful.

If you're looking for a job mate, you could help yourself now by regaining a positive attitude and some self-belief. The only person the airlines definitely do not want is a self-pitying sad sack with nothing to offer the company.

[UKflyer]

"1) Why spend 40-50K (minimum) just for a career??? esp. when you'll only earn approx 30k at the end of it (hypothetical), and god knows how many creditors youll then have!"

Ever thought of being a doctor or lawyer, the costs (particularly in the USA) are equally as large. Most people see the initial cost of training as an investment into their future, and an investment well worth making. For those who moan about paying large sums for their training, are not wholly commited to a career as a professional pilot.

I have read the whole thread, and agree that the *job* as an airline pilot has changed in the last ten years, my dad will also agree, being a pilot for 25 years. But whatever you think of the job or any job for that matter, it is what you make it, and it is what you put into it. At the end of the day, why should it be different from any other job, in the professional arena?

[Malc]

It's been mentioned that "if you're thinking about the OATS APP then you're looking at a £72000 overall and I personally think that there are much better packages to be had for about half that".....can someone give me some pointers to the alternatives please. I was on the point of sending a deposit cheque to Oxford!

many thanks

[scroggs]

VFE's point about the similarities between people's perceptions of music and flying is right on the money! Those who don't do it don't appreciate the amount of work required to succeed, and the amount of relatively boring drudgery and bullsh*t you go through to maintain the career once it's established.

You'll hear the 'it's not what it used to be' line from practitioners of almost any career in the Western world - commercialism (or rather, cost-cutting) and legislation have severly curtailed much of the creativity and fun to be had in most careers. Maximum, Pilot Pete, WWW, Easy Glider and Redsnail are all professional pilots now working in the industry. As you can read, their perspectives vary, but every one of them would have you look at the realities of life as a pilot - without forgetting the still-remaining, if fewer-than-before, rewards!

There are many ways of earning a living. Because you usually have to work for someone else, most of them suck to a greater or lesser extent - and aviation is no exception. As an airline pilot you are a highly trained and regulated resource to be exploited by your employer to his commercial advantage. Hopefully, your end of the deal gets you reasonable money, some time off with the family, and the prospect of better things to come. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work like that, and in all cases, commercial pressures will attempt to squeeze more out of you - maybe, eventually, more than you are willing to give.

There are still plenty of us who thoroughly enjoy our flying, and get well enough treated by our employers - and are prepared to work to improve things further. Few of us are blind to the fact that we might well have been financially better off in another field, but most of us that have been around for a while know that there are always trade-offs. I accept the bullsh*t of the huge commercial organisation I work for in exchange for reasonable money, good company while I'm away, and a fair amount of time at home. Do I get the best deal out there? I doubt it, but I know that I'm doing OK - and I still love what I do.

So, is it worth continuing? Well, that's up to you. Just ditch the rose-tinted specs, and remember that all careers have their downsides.

Now, where's my guitar?

[Master Yoda]

What about all the people at Drama School hoping to be the next "big thing" only to end up as Waiters or on the Dole, same risk as Flight School Students, me thinks.

You want the ultimate? Then you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.

Every job can be sh**, (unless you're a Page 3 Photographer!)

[no sponsor]

Malc,

I'd hold off on that cheque. It looks like you've not done your research to any level of depth. If you select the integrated route, then Oxford will charge you 72K for around 200 hrs of flying, your ATPLs, IR and JOC/MCC. It's a significant amount of money to spend for what can be done for less by completing the modular route:

PPL/Night = 5K
Hour Building 100 hrs - 6K (in the US)
ATPLs = 5K
CPL/IR = 12K
Multi = 5K
JOC/MCC = 4K
Accom for the year, 6K

Total = 43K + 3K for exams =46K (you might want to add contigency of 10-15%)

Now, you got that extra dosh to:

Flight Instructor Rating = 6K

OR, even a Type Rating = 25K + 46K = 71K

Which at the end of the time, might get you 200 hrs on piston with 100 hrs 737 (using Astreaus). And, you've still got the same licence, but with line experience!!

I reckon its worth you finding out some more details before you post the cheque.

[Epaulettes]

Where does 72K for Oxford come from ? Their website says £61.5K, which is bad enough but not as bad as your figure.

Incidently I have heard from some pilots that some airlines (noteably BA) wont touch low hours pilots that are not from an integrated course... fact or fiction ?

[no sponsor]

Under the pre-JAA system, perhaps. That was known as the CAP509, and meant that someone with 200 hrs could go to the airlines, since it was the only way to do it with those number of hours. With the JAA modular route, the courses are the same, except with one you can do the different parts at different schools - or you could do the entire integrated course as a modular course at Oxford - its all the same.

Even BA take non-integrated guys. Their internal-application for flight crew takes no account of where you went, just the colour of your licence - even with 200 hrs modular. You still have to pass their selection tests.

The 72K comes with their accomodation costs added to the course costs.

[TheHustler]

72K ? sounds like a good deal!!!! ill be straight down there too with my cheque book! what a major con!
30k of that is pure profit i guess!....... no offense but, if you hand over that sort of money u are a serious MUG! a salesmans dream!
Best bet by far, modular, save a fortune and at the end of the day, still have the same licence!

shop around!
:mad:

[Epaulettes]

No it sounds like a lousy deal, however I live about 30 minutes drive from Kidlington so I could live in my house with my wife, rather that in some cr*ppy study bedroom where your neighbours play bad music too loudly ;)

I understand from "senior sources at BA" that whilst Oxford might not be a requirement any more, it would certainly count strongly as one of those magic ways to make your CV look attractive compared to the several thousand other wanabees he might be considering. I am quite willing to believe it is treated as just another license by the majority of other airlines.

Speaking as a more "mature" ( :( ) wanabee, the main consideration for me of an integrated course is timescales... I could finish an integrated by say 36, but trying to run my current career while doing an modular would probably make me nearly 40 before I finished my ATPL.

Or maybe I should just open a grocery shop :{

[autosync]

Without doubt the beacon of sense here is, TheHustler.

Having been there done that, bought the t-shirt and completeted the exams. I can tell you now, it is filled up with dreamers who are now very much in debt and a lot of them are very much unemployed.

I think the CAA should actually approach people on the street and ask them if they want to fly for a living, if they say "No" well they already show common sense and should be brought to the next stage.

And as for all the romantic poets who say "Follow your dream"
how about you get used to following the social welfare que first?
Or have all your possesions reposesed.

If you have a family already, forget about it alltogether, just cause you are having a mid life crises, no need to drag them into it by putting such huge strain and financial hardship on them.

Civil Aviation is filled with dreamers who didn't like the office job and bought themselves licences, unfortunately there is no test in the medical to see if they have a few screws loose.

So civil aviation now has quite a fair few eccentric dreamers.
If you dream of being unemployed and broke, save yourself a lot of hassle. buy yourself a cardboard box and move out on the streets, donate everything to charity, it will give you a clearer concience then giving it away to huge flight training organisations or massive airliners.


If you are thinking of getting into it, don't!!
Fly privately, much more fun, even if you feel that you should be making money from it, resist the urge, you will only loose more then you will make.

Remember this.

[Serengeti]

Dont mean to sound synical but why is it so hard over there? I mean everyone I speak to that goes from here, (Aussieland) to the UK or Europe, pick up a job on a turbine within months. Sure it costs a bit but **** if thats what it takes.
I fly in the REAL bush of Australia where one day its scenic flights and the next aboriginies to their camps. The other day I had to stay the night in the aircraft as I was worried that they would draw on the wings and put rocks in the fuel. I slept through them doing it! and found 4-5litres of water looking substance and there aint any moisture here.
We get spat on, told to f**k-off, strangled and bascially treated like **** by our customers. If we're lucky we'll get guards on the flights with prisoners. We work 12hr duties and get paid for 2 hrs if we're lucky at $30 AUD an hour.
Now this might be the world standard, I really hope its not, but Aussies come to the UK with 2000hrs in command of C210's and jump straight into RHS of turbines.
Over here you get your licence for around $45,000 AUD then go to the bush for 2 years, flying a single. If you get a break you will go into the bush a little bit more to fly a twin (Baron or C310) for 2 more years. Now if you suck the right tuber you'll get a RHS on a Metro where you'll stay there for 5 years. Then Command on a C441 untill by the time your 35 you'll be LHS of a Brasillia.
Unless you get a job in QANTAS with 500hrs command.

Hope you guys arent complaining about the difficulties of getting a turbine job after completing your licence.
I really want to come over but dont know where to start getting info, of inside info on the places to go.
Any advice here would be great.

Keep your bloody chins up as we fly cause we love it. We're all the same at the end of the day, we love getting raped for what we do.

S

[Epaulettes]

autosync

I hear all you say, although I will grant you that you are be biggest pessimist/realist I have yet encountered on pprune ;)

I kinda figure the only advantage of being an old(er) fart looking to get into aviation is that if after a year of training i cannot get a job flying turboprops I can always go back to the job I currently do (which pays reasonably) and wait it out. I was going to move house next year which would add about 80 grand to my mortgage, if I stayed in the same house and did an ATPL I would be no worse off.. certainly not sitting on the dole queue.

Epaulettes

[UKflyer]

"I was going to move house next year which would add about 80 grand to my mortgage, if I stayed in the same house and did an ATPL I would be no worse off.. certainly not sitting on the dole queue"

I couldn't think of a more better way to spend 80K - new house or new career - i know which one i would choose!

Good luck

[no sponsor]

Ok UKFlyer, but I think the general point is that you don't have to spend 80K on the training in the first place - you could do your ATPLs for around 40K, leaving 40K to spend more wisely. :ok:

[UKflyer]

no sponsor,

You obviously didn't read my previous post. We all know you get what you pay for.

[no sponsor]

Errr.

What's the difference between getting an integrated course at Oxford and doing a modular course at Oxford? It's all the same: syllabus, aircraft, subject matter, except I can put modular on my CV or integrated. One costs less than the other, but you can't say the quality is any different; Oxford certainly don't say that.

Paying more has a rather tenuous link to commitment.

[FranticFlyer]

My reply to some of your posts. Firstly, my original post was 100% genuine and it was not meant as a personal attack on anyone. So Pilot Pete, I don't know why you seemed to take it so. You seem a touch over sensitive? Not quite sure why you feel the need for the sniping remarks and to tell me that you have dinner parties and get pissed with your mates ??? When I was refering to being able to buying a house, social life etc I was making comparisons to what I had then, and what I have now, not with what you or any other pilot out there has. I am just sharing my experience of aviation, which though different to yours, probaly strikes a chord with many wannabes out there.

And as for my post being sour grapes, no definitly not, I am simply trying to give another point of view so others do not make the same expensive mistakes that I have made. People can then weigh up the financial risks involved, some of the pros and cons of a career in aviation and make an informed decision. That is what was asked for by the original poster of this thread. Surely, people want to hear both sides of the story ? Yes, maybe I did not want the job as much as some of you do out there, but I knew when to cut my losses. There are many people out there who do want to be a pilot as much as the next person, but for whatever reason it just does did not happen for them, no matter how hard they have tried. There are just not enough jobs to go round. It's very easy to tell everyone to just go for it, especially when your one of the lucky ones who is flying the nice jet, but your not going to be there to bail them out if it doesn't happen.

From my point of view and from what I saw and experienced the grass wasn't greener on the other side, I just came to realize that the lifestyle was not for me, and that I cold find more fullfilement in a different career. Luckily for me I found a different career and lifestyle that I could pursue and enjoy. I know of pilots who are bored of flying, hate the lifestyle, but can't leave because the're not qualified to do anything else. Others might find themselves, hopelessly in debt with a qualification that is useless everywhere else except aviation. So just as some people may think they may regret never going for it, other people may regret going for it in a big way. Passing the flight tests, exams etc is the first and easiest hurdle to pass.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from following their dreams, it's just that most dreams do not cost +£50K, and having £50K debt is not a dream that you can wake up from and find it has dissappeared. I also find it hard to believe that more and more wannabes seem willing to pay for tpye ratings. Crazy ! What next ? Pilots paying to work for an airline !

On a final note, as has been said many times before, if you are going to go for it, at least have a back up plan, otherwise your dream might turn into a nightmare, as it nearly did for me.

:cool:

[redsnail]

Serengeti,
If you would like to know the story about changing an Australian licence to a JAR one then search my name in "Wanabes" and "Dunnunda and Godzone". I can assure you right now that if you don't have time on turbines before you turn up then it's a long hard struggle to get a job.
I've done the bush flying in Oz as well plus flown a few turboprops too. The competition is very fierce for any turbine job here and untill recently there was a lot of jet experienced guys out of work.
Also, check out the LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/fcl/document.asp) Section G. That will spell out exactly what is required.

[Master Yoda]

So while we get a lot of attention here may I ask views on why some flight schools like Stapleford in essex advertises £25,000 for ATPL paid up front or £30,000 pay as you go, why then do other schools charge double?

And what's/how much is a type rating? is that after the ATPL exams?

Damn I'm getting confused:(

And while I'm here is it worth doing a degree in Aviation Management with PPL and ATPL ground exams as part of the course? All flying is paid for by student?

So;

Student Loan for degree
Career Development loan for PPL flying and books, and a little more (£8k)
HSBC Loan to pay off career development loan and the pay for ATPL
(in this degrees case it takes you to CPL level) what the difference between CPL and ATPL?

Is this a wise route? will get a qualification as well as licence.

Advice would be nice, check link below 4 more info on what i'm talking about-
Check here for what I'm saying...... (http://www.lgu.ac.uk/ca/courses/progoutline.html)

[UKflyer]

"So while we get a lot of attention here may I ask views on why some flight schools like Stapleford in essex advertises £25,000 for ATPL paid up front or £30,000 pay as you go, why then do other schools charge double?"

You are paying extra money, for school x, because of the 'name' of the school. I wouldn't see it as anything else. Bottom line is you get the same thing. Whether people can justify paying an extra 20 to 30,000 on just the name is entirely their choice. School x will spend a fortune on advertising and marketing.

It is the same situation with US schools, you can get the same ratings in two completely different ways - FBO or the more expensive 'academy'. The planes at the FBO will be older, the schedules may be a bit tighter - but this is counter-balanced by the cheaper ratings..

[scroggs]

Frantic It's difficult sometimes, in print, to get your point across briefly without being misunderstood; to write about all the circumstances that caused you to take the decisions you did takes too long, yet to abbreviate your narrative risks the reader jumping to unjustified conclusions. Risks of the BB life, I'm afraid!

Anyway, no matter what has gone before, I entirely agree with your last post. This career isn't for everybody. It isn't even right for all those who'd like to have a shot at it. Even many of those for whom it is the ideal career will fall by the wayside for medical reasons, lack of aptitude, lack of application, lack of money or just plain lack of luck. As you say, you must have a back-up plan - and you should have a point (either in time or cash) beyond which you will not go unless there is a realistic chance of employment.

For some, for whom flying is the only career thay will consider, there is no such point - and good luck to them. But for most, practicalities and responsibilities will intervene. Like all prudent gamblers, you should set a 'stop-loss' point beyond which your own assessment of your potential returns outweighs your investment. Where that point lies depends on your own circumstances, the state of the market, and how much of a risk you're willing to take. That inevitably means that there will be those less deserving, but less risk-averse, who will succeed. That's life! Just be aware that, as in most things, flying training is a gamble and you can get in out of your depth. Hopefully, the market is set to improve and reduce the risk for many of you.

As for Master Yoda's point, it goes to show that you must look very carefully at what you are getting for your money. If School A is offering training to fATPL for 30k, check what you're not getting for your money compared to School B whose course is 50k. Look at the school's reputation, do a search here for others' opinions of that school. Go visit the school; ask about the facilities, what is provided and what isn't - accommodation, transport, books etc. What do those items cost if they're not provided? If they are, what quality are they? You get the picture...

Value for money is very important, but of course you shouldn't neglect the reputation and reliability of the school and its training. Not because some schools are 'worth' more than others to an employer - on the whole, they're not - but to protect your money! Look for those that offer 'escrow' accounts, or will allow you to 'drip-feed' payment - preferably by credit card, as the card provider is liable, to some extent, for the provision of the product or refund if the supplier fails!

There are many other things to be aware of and look out for, and a search of this site will provide most of the answers - but you'll need a day or two free to do a comprehensive search! I reckon the subject is important enough to devote the time to, so get to it.

Scroggs

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Like so many consumer decisions I believe the best value is to be had somewhere in the middle of the price range.

I wouldn't advise the very cheapest ATPL course circa £35,000 nor the most expensive circa £75,000. If you can find a nice little professional school, possible close enough to negate accomodation fees, that ends up costing you circa £50,000 then you have probably done well and will be happy with what you bought.

Time spent in reconnaissanse is rarely wasted!

These days it is pretty easy compared to just a few years back. Simply go to the CAA website and look at the full list of FTO's who can do all the training up to IR. Nearly all will have email addresses. Within an hour you should have been able to request brochures and pricelists from up and down the land.

Shortlist and visit.

Pay by instalments on - say - a weekly basis. Don't be afraid to complain but try to rub along. If you need to you can walk at any time.

Good luck, there are some ace smaller schools out there who can do you proud,

WWW

[Pilot Pete]

Frantic

My replies to your original post were not meant as sniping remarks, just someone elses opinion of the industry. Your post read like it was full of sour grapes, intended or not.

I agreed a couple of times that a career in aviation is not for everyone and certainly not for the feint hearted. Again, your original post read like you had made this risk riddled investment without having your eyes fully open and without really deciding that it was 100% what you wanted to do.

I will repeat a quote from your original post which will answer why I told you about my lifestyleI really can't understand why people are willing to sacrifice their marrige, families, homes etc in order to pursue a career which has such a poor lifestyle. Perhaps you can now see that your statement is a complete generalisation. Sure, I agree that plenty of marriages have failed, homes have been broken and in some cases lifestyles are not the best, but that is not the case with the majority and plenty of other careers have just as much stress and the associated problems. If you prefer the 9-5 in the City then that is fine, no-one is knocking that, but you made a statement about just how bad a 'pilots' lifestyle is on a pilot bulletin board and are now complaining because a pilot has contradicted your view!

I could not agree more about your comments regarding 'just go for it!' because you are right, just going for it is not enough. You really must want it. More than any other career. Because if you don't want it enough you will be extremely lucky to find a job, especially in the current market. There are too many hurdles in this business for anything less than 100%....and a bit of that 'burning desire!'

I am still interested to hear which airline took you on as an F/O and then wasn't going to pay you for a year as I am genuinely baffled by that one.

I stand by my statement that no airline promotes purely on seniority, that I can do as much hand flying as I want and that I don't find it as boring and repetitive as you seem to think it must be.

So if I caused you offence Frantic I apologise, it was not meant to be offensive, merely to show another another point of view about the pilot lifestyle and airline flying which was somewhat different to the generalised view you displayed of it.

PP

[The Greener Grass]

Bear also in mind MY that any school that says it can do it for £25 can't.

This is because there are numerous add ons like CAA Fees, 170A Fees (Practice tests), Flight tests, overrunning of course lengths, preferring more a/c time over the large sim time in those prices, personal equipment e.t.c. e.t.c.

A typical profile unless your an ace flyer is that you think you can do it in the minimum hours and then a week before the test it all goes pear shaped and you end up putting the test off and flying more which is v expensive at IR Level. Believe me I have been there and seen and compared stories with many students and that scenario applies to 80% of us. Furthermore I have gleaned that WWW's figure of £35k (Exc MCC Course, but inc everything else from hour 1) is the bare minimum these days.

You may hear the odd person or two that have spent less, but they are extremely limited. Hope that is of help, and welcome back all by the way from me, hope to start posting more again. :D

[VFR800]

Listen mate, you sound like you've got your head screwed on the right way, with a backup plan in hand in case it all goes Pete Tong, so just do it !

I'm in the same boat as you, 36, well-paid job in IT, except it's as dull as ditchwater ! I've wanted to fly since I was a kid, but due to family and life circumstances, I only now earn enough to pay for it.

I might not get a job, I might blow 35 to 40k, but at least I can say I tried before I have go back to building Windows 2003 servers ! !

I can fall back on my IT skills if it all goes pear-shaped (if they haven't outsourced the UK to India by that time !), but I'm banking on a turnaround in the US economy and an upsurge in pilot demand at a time when a lot of guys and gals will have been put off by the doom and gloom merchants. I appreciate it's a long shot, but it's a shot you and I have got to take!

Good luck m8

;)

[strafer]

Pilot Pete -
I can do as much hand flying as I want
it was my understanding that the bean counters at most airlines wanted autopilot on asap as it flies a wee bit straighter and burns less fuel than humans. Are you just one of the lucky ones whose airline doesn't have that policy?

[Maximum]

Strafer, although airline (and in fact all) professional flying has a largely routine element to it, the idea that the autopilot does everything with very little hand flying allowed is one of the great myths that isn't actually correct.

All the airlines I've had experience with leave the amount of hand flying up to the crew's own good judgement (within the larger confines of the SOP's of course). Obviously it's in the airlines' own best interests to have pilots who are in very good hand flying practice - and in short haul ops they will be.

Long haul presents its own problems, as obviously the amount of hand flying any one individual can do in a month becomes restricted by the sector length, and as a result the number of sectors per month. However, the professionalism and experience of the crews make up for any shortfall in hand flying practice.

[Pilot Pete]

Strafer

I've never flown in an airline that has stipulated when the autopilot should go in or out and have never heard of ANY airline that does either.

The autopilot doesn't burn less fuel than me. If I'm climbing at ECON speed with the autopilot out I burn the same fuel as I would climbing at ECON speed with it in. The FMC gives me that speed and if I try really hard (:rolleyes: ) I can just about manage to fly at that speed!

I do not tend to sit in the cruise with the autopilot out though, that just gets tedious, but I can do it if I choose to.

In the descent, the same applies as with the climb. If I program the FMC it will tell me where my TOD point is and I can then descend with the thrust levers shut A/P in or A/P out, fuel burn is the same. What screws it up are restrictions posed on achieving a constant descent with the levers shut, such as an ATC command to maintain a level. I can play with the speed to a certain extent to keep the levers shut whilst flying level, but if I have to fly level for any length of time I have to put the power up, A/P in or A/P out. If the FMC is kaput I use a rule of thumb to work out my TOD and with experience can end up on a 4 mile final approach with the power coming up for the first time ready for a possible G/A, again A/P in or A/P out. It makes no difference, except to my enjoyment level;) .

The autopilot just follows an input. The clever stuff that works out the most economical way for the aircraft to operate is the FMC. That will tell you what FL to try and get and when, what speed to fly at and so on. I can follow those instructions just like the autopilot can. So there you have it, no restriction imposed by the airline, as long as I follow the SOPs and of course traffic and weather permitting (the PNFs duties are increased significantly if I fly with the A/P out) so it makes good sense to ensure that he is happy with the workload and on some occassions (POL departure off 32 at Leeds rings a bell) there is a very high workload in the first few miles so it makes sense to brief that you will take the A/P very early.

Another point that comes to mind is about the A/P flying a 'little bit straighter' than a human. I don't know if you fly or not, but anyone who does will tell you that it is a basic flying skill to be able to fly in a straight line and even I don't 'wander' that far off heading as to cause an increase in fuel burn!!!

Regards and happy flying.

PP

[TheDream]

Early A/P on a POL1W.
Don't be a girl Pete
Some of us hand fly it all the way
Tee Hee :p

But at least you land at the top of the hill on 32

[Pilot Pete]

That would be in your Cougar then TD?;)

PP:ok:

[strafer]

Maximum and Pilot Pete

Thanks for your replies and myth-busting. My question actually came from a comment in Clive Hughes' book. Normally reliable, but in this case obviously not.

[madandy]

I can't believe it. I've just written a real long reply basically saying thanks to everyone for their replies and the stupid internet place logged me out!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was basically thanking every one for all the time spent in trying to help me with the biggest decision of my now not so short life.:(

Can I ask the question though...Is the industry really that bad. There seems to have been some real negative replies come in (no offence to anyone, it's not meant as an insult).

I can't think of a better job. Good money, status, social life (?).
Several people mentioned that the eventual salary is not worth the initial outlay....is this really true? I thought a Captain was earning in the region of c80-90k. I appreciate that I wouldn't earn that sort of money as a F/O. Are airlines the only well paid professional pilot job...What about turbo prop work???

On a lighter note I'm flying toBoston tomorrow on a 747:ok:
The only problem with that is that it will whet my appetite even more (as if it need to be :{ ) If you are the Captain or F/O on the flight to Boston with British Airways at 11am ish then pleeeeeeeease call for me to come and see the flight deck...during the flight would be nice....My name is Andy (funily enough) and i'll be sitting with my mate Keith and our significant others.

I'll look forward to any further replies on my return in 2 weeks. Once again thanks to everyone whoe replied

Sorry people it's only me again.
I forgot to mention that I still haven't decided whether to give my small cheque to those nice people at OATS. I do want to do the integrated course because of my age, but I guess it will depend largely on what those other nice people at the bank (hopefully they are pilots and will be reading this!!!!) will lend me??? OATS have sent me some more info on the extra time they are now giving students on the APP course on the top notch simulator they have there. I think they said by the end of the course that you will have 40 hrs in the sim they have there (i think it is a 737 or 757). Is this akin to a type rating? Apparently it will make an OATS student even more attractive to the airlines!!!! Any thoughts????

[redsnail]

Turboprop FO's are on thin money for quite a while.
eg, fly freight and an FO will earn in the region of ~£14-18K plus allowances. If you need to get the hours to get into the left seat or for some reason you can't move on to a jet job (or better turboprop) then you are on that money for 2-3 years. Minimum.

[no sponsor]

Madandy,

Your research is still pretty appalling! No flight deck visits these days, so don't bother to ask.

Go to an OATS seminar where they can fill you in on all the details. These are advertised on their web page.

Type ratings are something in addition to the ab-initio course (integrated).

[Pilot Pete]

Andy

Be wary of getting 'more' time in a jet sim. My personal thoughts are that it does not make you more attractive to an airline. Infact, for a turbo-prop outfit it probably makes you less attractive.

If you have the grand total of 200ish hrs I don't think an extra 10 (or whatever it is) hrs in a jet sim cuts any mustard. It is a marketing tool to make you think you are getting added value. Consider what you could do with the extra money if not doing integrated. Your choice and if integrated training is what you feel you need then fine, but do it for the right reasons and not because of a 'buy one get one free' type offer.

Regards

PP

[madandy]

No sponsor,
thanks but no need to get knickers in a twist....It was a tongue in cheek request. I knew that there were no cockpit visits during the flight.
I appreciate what you say about visiting OATS but been there, seen it and got the t-shirt (more money for those nice men at Oxford!!!!!) Thanks anyway.
Redsnail you have enlightened me. I am shocked to say the least! That is pretty poor money for a responsible job however I would still love that type anyway....
Lastly to Pilot Pete, you have also given a new angle for me to look at this as well, one which I hadn't thought of. You don't work for Cabair do you (only kidding)?:ok:

[Pilot Pete]

Andy

No I do not work for Cabair and never have.

Also, your £80-90k figure for captain salaries is a little optimistic. Maybe after several years with a large airline and including allowances, but a starting figure of mid 'fifty' ks would be more realistic as a stating captain salary with a UK jet operator. Allowances usually on top of that. Total figure something like £60k.

Regards

PP

[BlueRobin]

Perhaps am I being cynical, but it seems devotion does not necessarily equate to motivation to become flight crew on these boards.

I know I have a perhaps unhealthy devotion to aviation in general but can I put a finger on one sole reason for motivation? Nope. Can you and what's yours?

Perhaps the motivation is money? Are you all solely after that better wage? The same reasoning flooded the IT market with career-changers such that good talent is hard to find. Is the pilot training market going the same way? I note that plenty of IT people are attempting to switch to flying! I see also some dreamers dream of available hosties...

Perhaps the simple reason for being paid to fly bigger stuff so just result in a "duh, man like the reason is simple..." ?

[AlphaBravoZulu]

To me it's just the simple fact that there's nothing else I'd rather be doing with my life and it's always been that way. Yes, the crap you have to go through to get to the job at the end of the tunnel sometimes seems ridiculous, but I just know that in the end it'll all be worth it.
Assuming there is an end of course.

Plus, as one of my instructors once put it; I'd rather fly than work for a living. :p

[Chesty Morgan]

'Cos I'm too honest to steal and too lazy to work:D

[Martin4]

I know I have a perhaps unhealthy devotion to aviation in general but can I put a finger on one sole reason for motivation? Nope. Can you and what's yours?

Right now, although having some of the knowledge and should have GCSE's, I dont (long story), I am almost ready to start doing them distance learning in my spare time and am about to start work in a call centre to help get money for the training over the next few years. The thing that motivates me is a better future and a good academic professional career with good job prospects. And to be in a job that I could really be proud of, its a long road to get there with many hurdles to cross but keeping in mind the end result i find good for determination and motivation.

[shetland23]

The thing that motivates me is a better future and a good academic professional career with good job prospects. And to be in a job that I could really be proud of, its a long road to get there with many hurdles to cross but keeping in mind the end result i find good for determination and motivation.

Beautifully said

[NYCSavage]

Sorry for reawakening an old post, read this with interest and would love to know where some of you guys are now - compared to August 2003 when it all started.

I myself have a grand total of 1 hour flying time :( and I was shocked to hear you guys moaning at earning "only" £50k a year starting salary. Thats more than double the highest I have ever earned in my life.

[davey147]

I myself have a grand total of 1 hour flying time and I was shocked to hear you guys moaning at earning "only" £50k a year starting salary. Thats more than double the highest I have ever earned in my life.

Pilots do not earn a starting salary of £50k you'd be more likely to earn closer to £30k (if that) in your first year. Check out ppjn.com that has all the salaries on for you to look at.

[NYCSavage]

a starting figure of mid 'fifty' ks would be more realistic as a stating captain salary with a UK jet operator.
This is why I said starting @ £50k

[davey147]

ok, but you wont be starting as a captain will you? thats if you only have 1 hour, im guessing you havent got your licences yet, which rules out starting as a captain, so you'd be looking at a starting wage of approx £20k to be realistic.

[NYCSavage]

Oops sorry, I didnt mean a starting wage with only 1 hour flying lol.

If the starting wage for a captain is £50k I cant understand how people complain.

In my last job, I earned about £15k and never have to do without. So even your estimate of £20k is very attractive to me.

But its not just monetry value, look at the sites pilots get to see, you see views even your passengers never see.

http://home.earthlink.net/~larry.coats/C_141_cockpit_view.jpg

Then, there is the feeling of flying itself, how can you put a price on it?

If any of you guys ever have a spare jumpseat, id be happy to come along for the ride :)

[lc_aerobatics]

Thought I'll post my story too.
BBC - My Story - Luke Skywlaker or maybe Lucky Luke? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/mystory/stories/achievement/160496/)
In those grim times it helps to be bit lucky and to really go for it!
I hope above cheers up some of you guys and give you hope to go for it.
:ok:

[fly_antonov]

Then, there is the feeling of flying itself, how can you put a price on it?


This way: minimum 100 000 euro with type-rating.

Get 20 of you together and you can start your own airline.

Lease a Fokker 50, fly out of LCY or LIN or Africa. Progressively replace cheap pilots by yourselves.
Write-off pilot training as business expenses on your balance sheet.

You can fly and you will be your own boss, make a decent living.

Risky? What about throwing 100 000 euro to the wind and hope that you land a not well paid-job that offers little to no job security.