IR or FI?

[jau]

Hiya all.
I am trying to put a plan together for my flight training in the future, and have already decided that due to financial limitations to go down the modular route. However, I am at a bit of a loss when it comes to the later stages of the training and wondered if you could advise me please. The plan is to get a PPL and night rating, then to go down the distance learning route for the ATPL whilst hour building, then to get a CPL/MECR (combined course).

Then I can see two options. Do I:
a) Get a FI rating, leave a well paid engineering job to build hours.
Or
b) Go on to get an IR and then JOC/CRM and then try for the airlines.
The advantages for a) is that I would be building hours, and gaining experience in a flying environment whilst doing something that I enjoy (teaching people!). The disadvantage I can see is that I would strugle financialy with the cost of living, let alone 13K for the IR and then there's the JOC/CRM. Also I may have missed out an opporunity to apply for the airlines (no IR).

On the other hand b) would mean I kept my well paid job but after getting an IR and JOC/MECR I would struggle to get an FI as well. The chances of getting a job straight out of training are minimal and may have dug myself into a hole here. Then again I may get lucky...
Also I am wondering what my bosses attitude would be in my engineering job. If they knew I was training to be a pilot and leave engineering they may take a dim view on me.

My logic is that b) would be the better option as although I am not building hours, I am still in employment, and with b) I do not HAVE to get a FI rating weras with a) I do have to get an IR. What do you all think? Bearing in mind that whilst yes, being an FI is a means to build hours, I do enjoy teaching people and would not be a burdan for my students.

Cheers
Richard

[FlyingForFun]

Richard, seems like you're in a very similar situation to me.

The FI/IR decision (in my case I'll definitely get the IR, but it'll all be single-engine - the decision is FI or ME for me) will depend on the job situation at the time. Since I'm doing all my training during my annual leave, and that's only a few weeks a year, it's going to be a couple of years yet before I have to make the decision.

As for the boss's attitude, I haven't told anyone at work what I'm doing, but it can be very difficult when you have to lie about where you're going for your 3-week holiday. Have to admit I'm close to telling them right now, because I'm getting thoroughly p!ssed off here and I don't really care if anyone else knows... but that's my personal problem, and probably not very relevant to you!

Good luck!

FFF
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[Fujiflyer]

Myself likewise. I intend (Class 1 medical allowing) to do ATPL theory, then the CPL. I would like to do flight instruction so a FI(R) would logically be next however the IRT has to be done within 3yrs of the ATPL exams so this is also a consideration. I would like to gain this as well even if I go no further than being a FI. As for my present employer - well they know I do flying as a hobby anyway but my present thinking is that I would be looking at weekend instruction / freelance so I would not necessarily be planning on giving my full time job up (and judging by the aviation marketplace, probably wouldn't be able to).

For me the instructional side would fit nicely with my recreational flying. If the market really picked up and I had the qualifications / qualities to go further, well... ;)

Jau, in your case, if you can afford it I would join a flying syndicate (once you have PPL & 100hrs total flying) so that you can get more flying experience whilst you do the ratings (maintaining your present job). This way you will mix with other pilots well and keep costs down a bit, compared to hiring a/c. Bear in mind that a significant hurdle is the ATPL theory which you will want to start shortly after PPL / night so some group flying would go alongside this quite well, I would think. Do make sure you get the Class 1 medical first though before you commit to commercial ratings.

Fujiflyer

[rich49]

Thanks for your reply. Are you training to be an airline pilot? I was under the impression that you were just a recreational flyer!
What job are you in now?
To be honest, I am going to university in a couple of months to do a four year engineering degree, and then get a job to fund my flying. I don't think I would tell anyone that I am training to be a professional pilot, rather just say 'I have to do this rating so I can fly in bad weather'. Although studying for ATPL's may be a bit harder to hide. The fact that in all my school statements I said I want to be an airline pilot won't help. This is something that actually I am quite worried about because if the flying thing does not work out I don't want any hostility from workmates!
How does it work out with the training? I thought of a job where I would have had four months anual leave in which to do my training, but desided against it because I had to counterbalance that with eight months away from home. So I chose Uni instead.
Can a CPL/MECR or IR or whatever be taken part time on an 'after work' basis or does it have to be done full time?

EDIT: Why has my user name come up jau? My user name is rich49, NOT jau???????

[Mintflavour]

Well Im in the same boat as you all be it a bit further out to sea.
I went to uni HND Aero space then a Mechanical Eng Degree. Did this to start a back up career, get a better paid job to finally do what I always wanted to do....fly.

Started my engineering job after graduation paid of uni debts got a morgage settled down and finally at 28 I am well into my training with no debts so far.
On a weekend basis obtained my PPL Night IMC and all the hours required to start my CPL. I went to BGS to get the ATPL theory done by distance learning. I passed all exams first time while maintaining my job as project engineer, saved all my holiday to use for the 4 weeks of refresher and exams. (it can be done).
Work knows about my flying obsession but I have told them that I need all this to instruct for a hobby at weekends.

As you may see from my current thread Im looking for an FTO for the CPL to train at weekends as I have promised my other half that I will use the remainder of my holidays to be away with her.

Thats my story so far

good luck

Mint

[rich49]

Mint: Fantastic! Your doing exactly what I plan to do! Its nice to see that its working out for you, and I see you mention 'your other half.' The other thing I was worried about was a relationship (with a job, training and other financial implications I was wondering how I would find time for a relationship)

well, you all have helped me get rid of some of my reservations about my future, cheers.

[Fujiflyer]

rich49

I am not training to be an airline pilot, as you gathered I fly as my hobby at the moment and have done over the last 5 - 6 years since I began my PPL, which I completed in 1998. However I think I would get a lot of pleasure from giving instruction both for the satisfaction of teaching others and also being more involved with aviation. At my current age (35) I do not think I would be able to be successful in the airlines (I'd be 38ish by the time I had the fATPL).

As you ask, my profession is in Electronic design engineering (originally power supplies but more towards embedded firmware now).

I really don't think you should worry too much about an employer knowing about your flight training - they're unlikely to realise its more than a hobby thing if you plan it reasonably carefully,

Cheers

Fuji

[Mintflavour]

No probs any further Q's just ask.
However with the relationship bit, fortunately mine is very understanding and has a relatively good social life, When I was studying for the ATPL I only saw her at very late hours after studying and going to bed by which time she was asleep. Putting one night a side for a light beer with mates to keep you sane, and then some hours here and there and a rare whole night with your misses, believe me the rest of the 9-12 months you will be working your balls off in those books. I did mine in 9 months.

As for age fuji, I sat next to a bloke who was 39 on the atpl course. Id say the majority of people on the course was between 28-33

mint

[LFS]

FI or IR is always a tough choice. Unfortunatley the reality is that low houred guys a not currently getting picked up by the airlines whereas LFS has lost two PPL instructors in the last two months to the airlines. The experience counts for a lot and there are plenty of FI jobs out there. The other advantage is that you can work part time as an FI whilst still holding down another job keeping money coming in whilst still building usefull hours albeit not as quickly as being a full time FI.

[Obs cop]

Rich49,

facing the same dilema as yourself.

Just out of interest, why not keep the full time job and instruct on the side. That way you can enjoy training, get someone else to pay for your flying and keep the main job to fund everything else in life?

Just a thought,

Obs cop

[18greens]

Lets face it you will probably have to prepare yourself to do both . Almost everyone who has been through this professional pilot thing has.

You have to get an IR to keep your ATPLs because you don't want to be doing them again. Also I believe it has to be a multi IR (a single won't do) to keep the ATPLs current. I hope someone will prove me wrong on this one. But then again if you are serious about your job intentions a single IR does not cut it. Even if you are not serious about your job intentions you really want the challenge (and kudos) of the multi IR.

Once you have the IR you will then apply for many jobs. You may get lucky and hit the fabled pilot shortage, some do, but after 6 months of no joy or flying you will pay the money for the FI. Then you will enjoy flying for free ( if you ignore the £50,000 you have already spent). Once you hit 1000 hours you will stand a better chance of hitting the airlines. Also there is something about being in a flying environment, you get to know what is going on, who is recruiting etc and instructors do seem to get jobs on a regular basis out of flying schools.

The only slight advantage of doing the FI first is if you teach at a school with IR training facilities you may get a discount.

Whatever you choose to do good luck.

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Richard,

Instead of trying to answer your questions I will attempt to shed light on the way I have gone about my flight training. After all the decision between the IR and FI will be entirely yours in the long run.

Gaining my PPL early 1999 I was just enjoying flying so much that I lost track of the reason why I started in the first place. Anyway early last year I had a kick up the backside to start my way to becomming a commercial pilot. By this point I had about 350 hours.

I arrived back into Gatwick airport yesterday morning after a month in Florida. During the month I obtained my FAA CPL/IR and have fourteen hours short of 500 total.

Luckily my immediate manager as well as work colleagues know about the flying courses that I am taking, even the CPL/IR bit! Indeed he said I could have the 4 weeks off work as long as I took him flying when I get home! He would love to learn to fly himself, he was in the Air Cadets at a younger age etc etc... I wouldn't say that this has hindered my progression in the company at all (I work for a big telecoms company in their IT department).

My plan now is to study for and (hopefully) pass the ATPL exams. Luckily the modular route only requires 2 weeks of full time ground school at a time and there are only two occasions this needs to be done. So next years holidays that work give me are all fully booked - all I have to do is work out how on earth I can take an extra week to cover the few days spent doing the actual exams!!!! Just wish I could give up work to do this full time... but alas I need the money from my quite well paid job to pay for the training - catch 22!

As I am exempt from the full course of flight training for the JAA CPL/IR (as I now have the FAA CPL/IR) I should be able to use my works holidays the year after next to undertake those flight modules (will probably need a couple of more weeks than I am allowed at work - working on a way around that though).

Then as I won't have any holidays left I will have to decide to either quit my job (once I have sufficient funds for the FI course and to live on for a few months) and undertake the FI rating or to wait until I am allowed another 4 weeks holiday to complete the FI rating then in order to instruct on weekends.

Oh I am already studying for my FAA CFI (Certificated Flight Instructor) rating - bought the books last Friday before leaving Naples, I'll take the exams but not sure when I'll be able to get out to America to take the course.

But by the time I have a JAA CPL/IR / FAA CPL/IR, I'm hoping to have at least 700 hours total time (only another 214 to go) which if I remember correctly is the minimum required for IFR operations in charter outfits here under JAA rules. I may be wrong though. However trying to find a job with those few hours may be a little tough if not impossible so an FI rating will still be on the cards.

Within a few years I hope to have the JAA CPL/IR (with ATPL knowledge) and the FAA CPL/IR. May also have the JAA FI(R) and FAA CFI ratings by then.

Its going to take some planning with my financial resources and holidays from work but I'll get there (eventually) - aka British Rail.

The reasons for obtaining the FAA certificates as well is because I am tending towards the corporate side of aviation more than the airlines, so I thought it would be in my best interests to obtain both FAA and JAA certificates / licences. It doesn't work out too much more expensive than just doing JAA licences!

Anyway good luck with your training.

Best wishes,

Richard (another one!)

[FlyingForFun]

I believe it has to be a multi IR (a single won't do) to keep the ATPLs currentNot true - a single will do, as far as I can tell. Quote from LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_J.pdf):Provided that an IR is obtained during this period [36 months from the end of the month of the date of the final pass in the examinations], a pass in the ATPL theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid (for the purpose of ATPL issue) for a period of 7 years from the validity date of the most recent renewal IR entered in the CPL. However, if a professional licence with IR is not gained during the 36 month period, the ATPL theory credit will lapse.There is nothing anywhere about the IR having to be multi-engine.

FFF
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