VOR - obsolete soon ....???

[Kiwidan]

Hi y'all,

have heard various stories about VOR becoming obsolete in the near future. Is this true ? If so when? and will ILS be the only NAV used ?

Please forgive my lack of knowledge on this subject...
Rgds
Danny

[simfly]

ILS is a nav aid used for landing. VOR can be used for an approach, however they are also used for other navigating purposes (you may find them at either end of an airway) therefore it is impossible that ILS equipment could replace all VOR beacons. NDB's are another form of navigation beacon used.

[411A]

Howdy Kiwidan,

Well, can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the USA, VOR's will be around for a long time, as it has been realized by the FAA that to close 'em down too soon might not be a good idea.

The Instrument Landing System was actually in use before VOR's and likewise will be available for a long time as it provides specific guideance to selected runways for, if the aircraft is so equipped, automatic landings.

[Kiwidan]

Sorry guys its been a long day...I mean GPS !!

Thanks for the responses though, very informative.....

[411A]

Kiwidan,
Don't think GPS will be phased out anytime soon, in fact the FAA has just implemented WAAS, so that lower GPS approach minima will be available. In addition RNP procedures will/are now being used for arrivals/departures (enroute as well) to increase airspace utilization. GPS is very necessary for all this, so don't think it will just go away.

[av8boy]

I gotta get a life. See, I actually find the exchange itself interestinng (and Dan, this is not a poke at your question, nor does it take issue with 411A's answer... It's a communications thing) Kiwidan asked:
...have heard various stories about VOR becoming obsolete in the near future. Is this true ? If so when? and will ILS be the only NAV used ?

Correcting the post after some replies to ask:
Sorry guys its been a long day...I mean GPS !!

To which 411A responded:

Don't think GPS will be phased out anytime soon...

What was "GPS" supposed to replace in the original post? Was this an enroute question or an approach question? Did the question become:
...have heard various stories about GPS becoming obsolete in the near future. Is this true ? If so when? and will ILS be the only NAV used ? or
...have heard various stories about VOR becoming obsolete in the near future. Is this true ? If so when? and will GPS be the only NAV used ? (Don't think we were supposed to replace "NAV" with "GPS" though...)

God help me, I cannot say why this is so blasted interesting to me. Apparently I'm not drinking enough.

Dave

[411A]

av8boy,

No problemo.
Just have cocktail hour a little sooner.
Works for me.:E

[OzExpat]

Ah yes, I see it all now. I think this is what was meant...

...have heard various stories about VOR becoming obsolete in the near future. Is this true ? If so when? and will GPS be the only NAV used ? (Don't think we were supposed to replace "NAV" with "GPS" though...)

That being the case, yes there's a chance that VORs and NDBs and even DMEs will be phased out in time, to be replaced by GPS for enroute and non-precision approach. The speed with which this happens might make yer average snail look like a record breaker so don't hold your breath. My information is that the FAA has plans to rationalise the number of VORs that they will continue to maintain into the forseeable future, but it isn't an especially aggressive rationalisation. The last I heard, they were talking about retaining some 900 VORs!

There is certainly going to be scope for regulators all over the world to go deeply into GPS with the advent of receivers meeting TSO 145A or 146A specifications. It is certainly being looked at very seriously in the poorer countries that have difficulty in keeping conventional navaids serviceable. However, I doubt that you'll see significant changes in less than 5-10 years.

[Onan the Clumsy]

I can see it now: Commercial Pilot Written Exam Question Pool...

5481

What does the future hold for navigation aids?

(a) I have heard various stories about GPS becoming obsolete in the near future. Is this true ? If so when? and will ILS be the only NAV used ?

(b) I have heard various stories about VOR becoming obsolete in the near future. Is this true ? If so when? and will GPS be the only NAV used ?

(c) I need to get to cocktail hour a little earlier as I'm not drinking enough.

[Kiwidan]

Bloody hell....look what I have started....haha !

I would also like to ask if GPS equipment will become 'compulsory' in ALL aircraft soon..?
Just another thing I heard....
Any takers...

[Onan the Clumsy]

They'd have to make electricity compulsory too. ;)

[Tinstaafl]

Why would GPS be made compulsory? Except for specific instances, none of the incumbents are.

[Golden Rivet]

Compulsory - possibly given time.

Given that TCAS is mandatory now and things seem to be moving towards the introduction of ADS-B ( GPS a prerequisite ) I would imagine its on its way in the near future

GR

[ORAC]

USA ground navaid wind down (http://www2.faa.gov/nasarchitecture/Asd-iata.ppt) - approx 2010 to 2020.

Germany ground navaid wind down (http://www.bluecoat.org/reports/ANI-23.pdf) - 2003 to 2010.

Australian navaid wind down (http://www.airservices.gov.au/pilotcentre/forums/RAPAC/rapactas030410.pdf) - 2005/6 to 2012.

The writing's on the wall..........

[OzExpat]

Oi ORAC, ya missed the AIP Supplement just issued by Papua New Guinea. The timelines are similar to those notified by Oz. :ok: Probably only of academic interest tho! ;)

[ferrydude]

Careful Gentle posters! Ground based navaids are here to stay.
Even WAAS is predicated on Ground Based Navaids

[411A]

Not so, ferrydude, WAAS is GPS only.
Now on the other hand, LAAS is another kettle of fish, and does require a locally based navaid.

It is 'hoped' that LAAS will provide (eventually) CATIII capability for landing minima.
Don't hold your breath.:sad:

[ferrydude]

I don't suppose you have heard of differential GPS as a component of WAAS??? GROUND BASED STATION

[GlueBall]

In Brasil, between Manaus (MAO) and Campinas (CPN) there isn't one VOR that's working. I imagine that there's no incentive to keep them operational since everybody has GPS or INS.

[411A]

Certainly have, ferrydude, that's why it's called...LAAS, with the aforementioned ground station.;)

[ferrydude]

From the FAA site explaining WAAS;
" The WAAS is based on a network of approximately 25 or more ground reference stations that covers a very large service area. Signals from GPS satellites are monitored by Wide Area Ground Reference Stations (WRSs). Each of these precisely surveyed reference stations receive GPS signals and determine if any errors exist. These WRSs are linked together to form the U.S. WAAS network"

http://www.nas-architecture.faa.gov/Reporting/templates/mechanism_data.cfm?ET=SYSTEM&EV=561

Is it more clear now!!!!!!

[411A]

You're getting better at this ferrydude, but fail to understand that these stations are not navaids in the traditional sense, ie: you can't tune 'em in on any equipment in your aircraft, nor are they directly received by your GPS receiver, for navigation.
With LAAS, a different reference signal is transmitted at the locally served airport site, and is received by the airborne GPS receiver, hence CATII and (CATIII maybe) minima will be available.

With WAAS, the reference stations can be compared to a monitor installed to assure accuracy of transmitted VOR/ILS signals.

All better now?

[ferrydude]

Thanks Coach! I didn't realise until now the definition of "Navaid"
"Must be tuned and received onboard the aircraft"

[ORAC]

Speaking of navaids - New Scientist (Feedback):

While on holiday in the lovely New England village of Blue Hill in Maine, reader Chris Eccles purchased a sweatshirt which was attractively printed with "Blue Hill" followed by the latitude and longitude (44'24.88" North, 66'35.2" West). Stuck on the sweatshirt was a bright yellow warning label:

"Caution! Not intended for navigational use! Manufacturer disclaims responsibility if teeshirt is used as a navigational aid and cannot be held liable for any damages, including shipwreck, loss of life or limb, or any other inconvenience. Have a nice day."

;) :p

[OzExpat]

Gotta wonder how much cheaper the t-shirt would've been without all that extraneous writing... :p

[Kiwidan]

Thanks for all the repilies on this, very interesting. Been ill for a while and just read all the posts.