View Full Version : Oxford Aviation ATPL Manuals
Might I suggest you do not sell them.
You will find them a valuable source of information in the future when your memory starts to fade!
I always recommended to my commercial students to keep all their notes intact.
Doubt anyone would want second hand notes anyway as they still have to enrole on an approved course.
TheFlyingDJ
2nd Aug 2003, 04:36
Might I suggest you do not sell them.
You will find them a valuable source of information in the future when your memory starts to fade!
I always recommended to my commercial students to keep all their notes intact.
Doubt anyone would want second hand notes anyway as they still have to enrole on an approved course.
I second that motion!!
FlyingForFun
4th Aug 2003, 03:14
If JWD still wants to sell his manuals after being advised not to, that's up to him.
But a word of caution for anyone wanting to buy them - as Meeb says, you will have to fork out for another set of manuals when you enroll on the course anyway, so they'll almost certainly be a waste of money! (Unless you're already on a course and find that the notes aren't adequate - in which case you'd have been better off being more choosy with your course provider in the first place - but that's a different story).
Sorry JWD! :p
FFF
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NineEighteen
4th Aug 2003, 15:23
in which case you'd have been better off being more choosy with your course provider in the first place - but that's a different story). I disagree, there are some excellent courses out there that are far less expensive than the 'well known' FTO's. If the notes for a particular subject are slightly lacking, a look at a rival school's is invaluable. The whole package is still well under the cost of some others. :ok:
There is a market out there, or they wouldn't be available in the shops...good luck on the sale JWD.
FlyingForFun
8th Aug 2003, 22:06
JWD,
You say:Some Flying Schools are going to have better notes than othersand then, in the next paragraph:I didn't get on with their [PPSC's] notes at all. It's an individual thing, friends of mine thought PPSC was greatIf you take a second to think about it, your two statements might possibly contradict each other. I personally like to believe (in my own little naive world!) that there are no bad schools out there, just different schools, and that the "individual thing" you talk about explains why some people go to one school and some people go to another. I also like to believe (again, in my own little naive world) that everyone researches their school before signing on the dotted line, and that by the time you hand over any cash, you know exactly what you're getting, and you know that the style of the product you're buying suits your individual learning preferences. 9-18 does make a good point that a school can provide an excellent course despite having below-par notes (although I'm not sure about the implication that the quality of the notes depends on how well known the FTO is!) - a point which I often forget, having done distance learning where the quality of the notes is the single most important thing by a long way.
FFF
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FFF,
Whilst I agree with your sound advice I would beg to point out that it's not possible to get the 100% gospel on flying schools even if you do fully research them. Before starting an ATPL course you have nothing to compare the notes to as it's all a new ball game to you.
I would also have to say that there are indeed bad schools out there and unfortunately alot of students don't discover their school is a bad one until they're enrolled and experience the harsh truth first hand. Speaking to students at schools is a fruitless exercise too as most wouldn't want to lose face in admitting they're with a rubbish school which stands to reason because if the school goes under through lack of custom they're in the poop bigtime and will most likely lose money.
Notes from schools vary bigtime from the simplistic 'teach them what they need to know to pass the exams' style (my style!) to the 'teach them everything and that way we cover our backs' approach which is extremely daunting and is exactly where I came unstuck with my first choice of school. It is unnecessary for ATPL's given the timeframe. The fact I passed three out of six still amazes me! Good example would be the issue of a 200 page manual on climatology just two weeks before our met exam.
To compare the first school to the school I'm with now where I've passed all the subjects first time (fingers crossed for last weeks exams!) and you'll see that I could not have suddenly become an expert overnight........ far from it. It's a mix of which notes suit you and the quality of instruction. Some methods just click with people in different ways. My POF instructor would back his lectures up with mathematical workings to prove the mechanics of flight which at ATPL level is for the large part totally OTT but two guys in the class got on with that method and it compounded their understanding.
Many students at the first school I was at needed notes from OATS and BGS to suppliment the hopeless notes issued on the course. Sadly, I failed to latch onto the trend in favour of sticking it out with the notes the school issued and well, as I say I passed three from six at that place.
I haven't applied myself any harder or any less than I did at that school either. It was a lot of huffing and puffing for something which need not be. Some schools notes are full of circumlocution which is not what you need when learning. Compare OATS notes on engines to BGS notes on engines. BGS wins hands down IMHO. The lack of waffle and the direct presentation is a clear indication of the authors mastery of the English language and the subject area - knowing how to say something with five words instead of twenty. Others plain and simply just get their facts wrong and there's no way you can know this by glancing at the selection of manuals on offer in some swish reception on an official visit to a potential flying school.
A good maxim for aviation is 'learn from mistakes' and this starts right from the begining before you even pick up a pen or go near a puddle jumper. Glad I eventually learned, severed the contract and moved onto a school where I could learn quicker, better and easier.
Thanks must go to Bristol Groundschool.
VFE.
FlyingForFun
11th Aug 2003, 15:53
Good post, VFE - I agree with everything you say. Including the bits where you disagree with me!
I'd like to point out that I used the word "naive" to describe my own thoughts, several times, in my previous post - of course there are bad schools out there, and of course it's not possible to thoroughly research the schools without sitting through the entire course! What I was describing was the ideal world.
FFF
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Ah! So you are a hopeless utopian dreamer like I then FFF?! We need to stick together mate!
Must say that my post started off being addressed soley to you but I wandered off and began warbling on about the entire ATPL experience...... apologies if it looked like I was disagreeing or worse, patronising you. This was not my intention and I should have made the distinction between the part that was for you and the large majority of it which was just general babble after a week sat in the exam hall.
Regards,
VFE.
Gordon Bennet
13th Aug 2003, 21:46
Someone above mentioned keeping notes for future reference - I was in Transair and noticed a book called JAR Professional Pilot Studies, which seems to have most of it inside 500 pages, so it's useful for keeping in the navbag. If nothing else it could be an alternative view for your own notes. I thought the writer's style wws pretty good - certainly picked up a couple of points I wish I had known before the exams.
Gord
NineEighteen
14th Aug 2003, 19:23
(although I'm not sure about the implication that the quality of the notes depends on how well known the FTO is!)I see your confusion but to clarify...My comment about 'well known' FTO's was, of course, referring to OAT and BGS.
OAT are the only notes I've seen commercially available and seem popular for extracurricular study (mainly because they are largely free of waffle IMHO). BGS notes are widely regarded as very good; I'd expect a high standard of notes from a distance learning outfit purely because 'hands on' instruction is lacking until brush up time.
0918
P.S. Congratulations on the sale price JWD. That's at least a couple of hours flying time! :ok:
In my experience "hands on" instructing for ATPL's complicates the issue. Many was the time I sat in class whilst desperately trying to stay awake when one of the 'bright sparks' was asking something which was not required to pass the exam. Poor instructor was made to elablorate and hey presto: half the class ain't gotta clue!
Anyone going through groundschool would do well to flag up these guys who persist in knowing more than they need to. Okay, it's good that you have an interest and they have indeed paid their money so have a right to get things understood in their head but because of their thirst for extra knowledge half the class suffers from overload. Not fair.
VFE.
NineEighteen
14th Aug 2003, 23:48
Many was the time I sat in class whilst desperately trying to stay awake when one of the 'bright sparks' was asking something which was not required to pass the exam An excellent point VFE, I was lucky with my group. A few isolated incidents but on the whole a constructive course. An important point for new ATPL'ers to consider though.