IMC during hour building?

[Jaydee27]

Newbie question, so hello to everyone - I've been reading for a couple of months now and find this forum the best way to get through a day at work...Also sorry if this subject has been done to death in the past

Anyway, I'm currently hour building, whilist studying for ATPL's with Bristol (8/14 - over half way!) and am constantly hearing of the importance of making hour building 'constructive' and not just 'buring holes in the sky'

So the question is, would an IMC be worthwhile and give me a heasdstart on the IR, make hour building easier, weather wise and almost pay for itself from the point of view of time off the IR course? The FTO I'm with also do it in a Warrior, so I'm thinking that might be a worthwhile conversion as my CPL will almost certainly be in one and an Arrow.

Thanks all,

Jay.

[FlyingForFun]

Hi Jay - welcome to PPRuNe!

You get no time off the IR if you've done an IMC. Sorry. Of course that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it, or that it won't be useful - but you'll still have to do the full IR course.

One alternative is to do an American, FAA, IR. You do get time off that course for the IMC training (or any other instrument flying) that you've done. Mad, isn't it, but that's the way it is. Once you've completed your FAA IR, you'll then need to convert it to a JAR IR, which is a minimum of 15 hours, so all in all it's probably still not worth it from a saving-hours point of view.

Hope that helps.

FFF
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[raisin]

I would hazard that it is worthwhile. I haven't done an IR yet, but am in much the same boat as you Jay. I did an IMC last year and it is useful in terms of being able to do more whilst hour building weather wise.

Plus it's challenging, good fun (the first solo cloudbreak is an interesting experience :eek: ) and you'll be picking up skills you'll have to use for your IR later on.

Cheers,

raisin

[onehunga]

I will be man enough and admit that I was slightly guilty of burning some of those holes in the Floridian sky when I did 100 hours a while back. Although in my defence I did plan each flight and do the full plog but wasn't religiously following times etc. So probably not as guilty as many folk that fill her up and head off following the coast in a particular direction.

Am now over half way through my IMC. My motivations for doing this were 4 fold really. Firstly I needed to do the usual "conversion" back to flying in the UK having done the bulk of my hours in the US. Secondly, I thought I could kill 2 birds with one stone and do the "conversion" whilst training towards something. Thirdly, I thought that it had to make you a better/safer pilot and finally I am hoping that it will go some way to making the IR a hell of a lot easier.

[Northern Highflyer]

Jay I am going to do the IMC as I feel it will be helpful to have some experience when starting the IR. Although no time can be saved, having some instrument knowledge must help the learning process and make life a little easier in what many say is the hardest part of the whole learning process.

I think having an IMC saves a few hours off the night rating requirement but I stand to be corrected.

Good Luck

NHF

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its a good foundation for the IR. If it saves you an hours worth of very expensive IR tuition it might well be worth it.

Try an engineer your IMC course to include:

1) A recency checkride allowing you to hire club aircraft again after a period of non-flying

2) As many hours as possible towards the night rating requirement.

3) A checkout in a new aircraft type.

If you were going to be flying those hours anway just to build time for the CAA then really the cost of the IMC is only the expese of having the instructor sat with you (paltry) and the CAA fees for issuing the IMC certificate. Minus of course the saving on night hours for that rating and minus the hours that you would have spent on a recency checkride and a type conversion/checkride.

It can be V cheap depending on how you look at it.

Good luck,

WWW

[18greens]

Also if you have an IMC your IR (when you get it) will lapse to the IMC for the second year. If you don't have an IMC it just lapses and you can't fly IMC until you renew the IR.

A lot of people don't seem to renew the IR religiously every year instead going for every other year and using the IMC to cover the second year.

Also lets face it theres not much more you can do in the private world with an IR than with an IMC if you stay in the bounds of the UK. If you fly comercially then they renew the IR for you and its no problem.

The IMC is also good fun and a bit more constructive than boring holes in the sky and will teach you more disciplined flying in preparation for the good old IR.

[RodgerF]

Couple of points here.

IMC and Night Rating. No connection anymore. There is no instrument instruction required for the Night Rating just the 5 hours at night.

Quote

'If you fly comercially then they renew the IR for you and its no problem.'

True, but if it is renewed in an MPA then the IR is of no use in an SPA.

RF

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

RodgerF - ref Night ratings. But you can still do the IMC course at night and log it as such thus reducing the cost of a night rating at a later date.

Good point about the IR lapsing back to an IMC.

As for allowing much more constructive and safer hours building - utterly true.

WWW

[Port Strobe]

Can I ask a quick question rather than answer one please?? (sorry, thought this looks like an apprporiate place to ask this)

What is the difference between the IMC and the IR?? I mean in terms of what you have to do. I know the IMC is a CAA rating so you cannot use it outside UK airspace unless given the go ahead by the foreign authority but what else does an IR pilot do that an IMC pilot doesn't? Is it just that the IR pilot can fly to tighter tolerances or can he/she do other stuff?

Just curious because I'm intending on doing my IMC this winter and wondered what I'm not going to be taught that an IR would teach me. BTW, if there is a big difference between them then for you guys with IRs already I'm not saying they're equal and belittling what you've got, just curious to know the difference.

Thanks for your time.

[FlyingForFun]

Port Strobe - there's a thread running in Private Flying which asks exactly the same question. It wanders off-topic a little bit, but it does answer the question befoer it wanders off topic - read that for a full answer.

The short version is that the IMC Rating is only valid in the UK, as you already know, and it's only valid in Class D airspace or lower. There are recommended limits for instrument approaches which you should not go below - broadly, the absolute lowest for a precision approach is 500' and for non-precision is 600', but it's more complex than that.

As for "what I'm not going to be taught that an IR would teach me", you should really be taught everything except airways for an IMC, except you won't have as much practice, and therefore you won't be capable of flying it so accurately.

(There are some things like holds that aren't strictly speaking on the IMC syllabus. But if you're going to fly an instrument approach and ATC need you to hold, you're going to have to know how to do it - which is why every IMC instructor or examiner I've spoken to says that they require IMC students to be able to fly holds, although they're not at all bothered if they're not accurate as long as they're safe.)

FFF
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[Topgun 4122T]

hi ,

Im in the same situation as yourself , im studing the Bristol notes for the atpl's , hoping to sit my first 8 exams in september .
I done my ppl , night rating , hour building and also an i.m.c rating while i was in florida. In my opinion it was deffently worth while doing the imc, not only is it helping me with my exams because i understand what there talking about when it comes to ILS approaches and radar vectors ect, but i also feel more confindent when up flying ! plus without question it has to be a huge help when entering into the IR rating .... hope this helps you decide what to do and feel free to ask any other questions
[email protected]. derek byrne .:O

[18greens]

Good point RogerF I forgot the SPA/MPA thing.

Now there's a point does an MPA revalidation renew your IMC or do you need to visit a separate examiner?

[Port Strobe]

Thanks very much for the reply FFF, I'm off to have a look at that now. Holds are actually a part I'm looking forward to doing, good job the instructors teach it. Thanks again.

[RodgerF]

18Greens

Look in here Page 12

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_E.pdf

Seems you just need an endorsment from the CAA.

I presume you are referring to an MPA IR(A) as part of a JAR-FCL professional licence, if you have a CAA CPL or ATPL they contain non-expiring IMC privileges.

RF

[GJB]

I've got the IMC rating and would recommend it to anyone.

It's good fun, and a worthwhile course.

[Jaydee27]

Thanks everybody for your replies. I'm trying to book a couple of days straight and get most of it done.

Good tip from the instructor for guys in the SE. I fly out of Norwich and each approach is a tenner. However if you can get across to Calais you can flog the ILS all day for about £20.

Thanks again...