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View Full Version : 'DABL'?? What is it??


BEagle
19th Jul 2003, 16:16
Have been instructing for a while now and I know what FREDA, HASELL, BUMFPITCH are - I even remember TAFFIOHH and BUMFF. In the Gnat we had STUPRECC and CUBSTUN - the RAF uses HAAT, FEEL and FIRAD...............

But who/what/why is responsible for this DABL:yuk: thing which is creeping in? Is it something else to inflict upon students struggling with early lessons to make it look as though they're getting something more for their money....??

twizzle
19th Jul 2003, 19:46
I was introduced to this " workcycle scan" when I did a FI refresher course.
For use in Climbing and Descending lesson.

D= Direction (check DI/landmark)

A= Airspeed (aiitude/trim)

B= Balance (ball)

L= Lookout (weave/lower nose)

E= Engine ( T&P's/warm engine)

I would class the the FIC instructor who was using this teaching scan as A1 by military standards.

BEagle
19th Jul 2003, 23:29
No 'A1' or even 'B2' QFI would ever stoop to such utter rot! During Climbing and Descending, the student is taught to LOOKOUT, maintain the correct ATTITUDE and then to verify that the correct attitude has been achieved by brief reference to the INSTRUMENTS appropriate at the time. In straight climbing/descending flight, these instruments are the ASI, DI and ball, with ocasional reference to the altimeter. No 'special mnemonic' is required; however, occasionally the additional brief scan of Ts and Ps is required, as is a positive 'clearance' of the flight path by a small turn to clear the area hidden by the engine, but NEVER by 'lowering the nose' (or even selecting, holding and trimming a lower pitch attitude as real QFIs would say).

'DABLE' = drivel!

machonepointone
21st Jul 2003, 01:03
I too have never heard of DABLE, and I have to agree that it makes no sense. For starters, using a landmark as a check of maintenance of Direction will not work in a strong crosswind - something that I have noticed that many instructors have totally failed to see through, although it is fun to play along with them on an FI refresher course. Also, why bother to look at the slip ball? Yes I know that the idea is to maintain balanced flight, but if the correct attitude is being maintained and the heading remains constant, then the slip ball cannot be anywhere other than in the middle. Finally, it would appear that this scan is confined to climbing/descending only, so what scan is the student taught for S&L and turning? Sorry Twizzle, but your man does not sound like an A1 to me.

Where I work at the moment, plus all the other places both military and civilian where I have been previously, the Lookout-Attitude-Instruments scan is taught. It is used for all visual flying, not just climbing and descending.

Regarding lookout in a climb, although the weave is the preferred method, lowering the nose briefly (without attempting to maintain airspeed or to retrim), is taught as an option during a prolongued climb on a cross-country.

BEagle, when were you on Gnats? I did my advanced flying training at Valley in the mid 60s on them.

BEagle
21st Jul 2003, 04:24
My Gnat course was in Jan 75....

I don't like the idea of changing the pitch attitude in the climb in order to see what's hiding behind the nose; to do so effectively would need a large attitude change which would destroy what little climb performance most gutless spamcans have in the first place!

Bring the ball into scan when the horizon is indistinct - to make sure that a skidding or slipping climb isn't being flown in error.

I first heard of DABLE when watching an appalling board brief on a 'learning to fly' TV programme - how to make something very easy seem really hard. But maybe that was for the benefit of the cameras?

L-A-I is also used in order to maintain pretty well everything; I note another misnomer which has crept in from certain schools where ' Attitude, Power, Trim' is taught. This is, of course, also nonsense! 'Power' always infers 'Make power selection, hold attitude whilst doing so and trim for the power change'; what comes next is the positive SELECTion of the attitude required for the new stage of flight, HOLDing that atttitude and TRIMming to relieve any control loads...

Say again s l o w l y
21st Jul 2003, 07:41
I've always used P A B T (Power Attitude Balance Trim) and it works for all situations EXCEPT levelling from a nose high attitude. Then it would be A P B T. Power does always infer that you should kepp the attitude selected, but this trimming for a power setting... An airspeed/power setting Yes.....

I agree that with a good scan students shouldn't need a nmenonic, but in the early stages something to focus the mind helps.

As to wether you should lower the nose or weave to clear the climb I think both forms have their merits and problems. I don't believe in a catchall for any situation or a/c.

excrab
22nd Jul 2003, 02:15
BEagle,

I'm not sure if you can say that attitude, Power, Trim, has "crept in from certain flying schools".

I was taught it thirty years ago when I learnt to fly, and again 25 years ago on my initial instructor course by an AFIC instructor/examiner who had done his initial CFS course in 1947. So I think it is safe to say it has been around for quite a while

BEagle
22nd Jul 2003, 03:32
Well sorry, but it has. From partly-remembered military instruction wrongly applied........

Swinging the Lead
22nd Jul 2003, 22:36
Beagle,

I don't see what your problem with DABEL is,

it is a simple way of remembering what to do in the climb, your second post just confirmed the requirement for DABEL by mentioning all the elements covered within the neumonic.

It is a perfectly acceptable way of ensuring a low hours student who is fairly close to capacity, in his early training covers those bases.

Of course the Cx's are broken up by looking out of the window.

I agree with the clearing turns method - although a lot of students that I see do tend to lower the nose for look out.

Just because something wasn't invented by the balloon corps doesn't make it rot, nonsense or drivel!!!

BEagle
23rd Jul 2003, 04:45
Not so! Read them again more carefully.

pilotbear
24th Jul 2003, 02:37
Sadly I think Beagle also believes the Earth is Flat :rolleyes:

BEagle
24th Jul 2003, 04:28
No it isn't! But the Sun does go round it.....;)

pilotbear
25th Jul 2003, 16:04
I hear Leonardo has invented one of those infernal flying machines again, damned thing will never get off the ground:ok: :ok:

twizzle
25th Jul 2003, 17:50
BEagle

OK.. It is not the way we were taught many years ago,but quite frankly I cannot see the problem with the use of "DABLE."
If it helps a student and achieves a proficent end result,so be it.

I stand by my comment on the FIC instuctor.

I was also a Gnat QFI and CFS QFI before your time!

orionsbelt
28th Jul 2003, 19:36
Agree with BEAGs mate

Think DABLE was invented by CABAIR and was part of there Standard Preflight briefing Document. i.e. an attempt to introduce Standards into PPL training as they saw it!!!!!!!!!

Most FIC schools seem to teach this now, however R D Campbell and Trev Thom do not use it in there books ( or for that matter Birch and Branson and other early text books )

When I learnt to fly in 66 we had pretake off and landing vital actions HASEL and FREDA (without the R as it was not fitted ).

Think teaching skill is being replaced by PAT APT, Hat, Hatfire
and God knows what else.

Its the GPS, check list, massive cct, 10mile final with 2500 rpm set, mentality that seems to exist nowadays. Real skill is being replaced by pseudo actions and statements, a lowering of standards just so the people can pass an exam instead of actually learning to FLY and Navigate !!



(Flack Jacket an tin hat on )
:E

pilotbear
29th Jul 2003, 05:46
"lowering of standards just so people can pass an exam"

Yes, I quite agree:sad:

Say again s l o w l y
29th Jul 2003, 21:58
What absolute nonsense. There is no such thing as dumbing down unless the examiners themselves are doing it!

We teach to the recommendations of the examiners aswell as the syllabus, if they don't like something the students are doing they tell us and we change what we are teaching. I have to say that so far this has only changed very minor things.

As for doing 10 mile final, GPS use etc.. another load of old rubbish. Many people do fly like this, but not as students or when club flying if I'm about. No school I know of routinely teaches GPS usage as part of the training, but only when the students have reached a sufficient level of competence and nous.

Instructing is not only about teaching the mechanics of flying, but also the mindset that goes along with it. This is something that alot of schools do sometimes fail to pass on sufficiently (in my opinion anyway.) But I fail to see how teaching nmenonics leads to lessening of skill, remember that most people you train will only fly once a month if you are lucky, so anything that can help them remember the correct way of doing things is a help in my book.
As to wether people who fly once a month should be allowed up in an aircraft... That is a different matter.:ooh: