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priscilla
16th Jul 2003, 00:17
Reading some posts, I saw that VFR pilots have to request the service they want to get....
In France we have 3 kind of services:
- Alert service (you'll get for each call)
- Flight Information service
- Control Service (traffic infos or spacing)
I work in an approach center and we use radar. But we provide the service corresponding to the airspace beeing crossed.
I remember having some Uk pilots requesting FIS.....what are they expecting me to do ? they don't want traffic infos???
how will they ask if they need more than FIS...
I know I should study UK air traffic rules... :eek: but if you can help.....Please :rolleyes: (I still have to understand some of theFrench ones ;) )

ATCbabe
16th Jul 2003, 05:30
Hi Priscilla,

A FIS is simply a flight information service which is given without the use of radar derived information. You pass traffic information on other aicraft that you know are in the general area. Other info which you consider pertinent such as weather reports from other aircraft etc, can also be passed at your disgression.

Fis is only provided outside controlled airspace. The only other type of service a VFR will get outside controlled airspace is a RIS (radar information service). Similar to a FIS except you can use radar derived information to pass traffic information, etc. No avoiding action will be given for either service.

Inside controlled airspace all VFRs are under a control service, wither its a radar control or an approach control service.

As in your case, all aircraft on frequency are automatically provided with an alerting service.

Hope this has been of some help and I'm sure more people will add in their tuppence worth for bits I've probably missed out.

Babe

Jerricho
16th Jul 2003, 17:13
I'm probably going to leave myself open for a good kicking here, but Priscilla you mention your confusion over what a pilot is expecting "service wise" from a request. You also mention the service provided depends upon the class of airspace.

To throw this open a bit wider, what sort of requirements are there for pilots operating in foreign FIRs to know what service they are asking (I apoligise in realising this is starting to draw a little parallel to our infamous F15 situation, but this has crossed my mind before).

Different services (RAS, RIS et al) all seem to have little "add-ons" in various parts of the world. As probably a request for "Special VFR" does as well (UK and Canada being one instance).

Any thoughts from our drivers?

yaffs
16th Jul 2003, 18:47
(and probably going to get a bigger kicking than jerricho here!)

however i would suggest it is up to the pilot to know the rules of the counrty he is in

(ducks)

yaffs

priscilla
16th Jul 2003, 21:02
Thanks ATCbabe,
So why does a pilot have to request a service???
if he is calling you, you will give him the service corresponding to the airspace..... that's what we do in France
is it only for non controlled airspace?? the pilot will choose FIS or RIS???
IF a pilot call me and request FIS in a E aispace where we have IFR acfts, what does he expect me to do??

bluskis
16th Jul 2003, 23:35
As a pilot, VFR in France, who flys quite frequently in your country, I accept what ever service is given by ATC, without specifying any level of service myself.

I find a huge difference in service, for instance nearly nothing from Paris Info, to lots of in flight info from Seine, and Lille Info.

I also find French D class zones very helpful in giving zone transits.

Your explanation that ATC gives service corresponding to the airspace goes someway in explaining the above variation, and validates my habit of accepting what is on offer.

As to your question on FIS request in Class E, perhaps let the pilot know they are identified on radar, maintain lookout, and maintain VMC would clarify things to them.

Conflicting traffic info gratefully accepted.

I expect you will also have to remind some of the VFR levels to fly, having heard some Brits transmissions last weekend.

FWA NATCA
17th Jul 2003, 02:02
priscilla,

I can understand the confusion since you provide three levels of service. As a suggestion you can either provide whatever service you have time to provide, or ask the pilot what level he or she desires.

Here in the US if a VFR pilot calls and ask for VFR flight following and traffic permits we will provide radar service (flight following) and issue known traffic. If we are too busy we tell the pilot unable and to stay clear of the Class C (Charlie) airspace.

Mike
NATCA FWA

ATCbabe
17th Jul 2003, 06:30
Hi again Priscilla,

The reason a pilot requests a service is so that both parties are completely aware what service is being provided. It is like forming a contract between the atco and the pilot.

Inside controlled airspace in the UK (class A-E) all VFRs are given a control service, wither or not radar is available.

Outside controlled airspace, Classes F & G, is where either a FIS or a RIS is given. There are a few differences between them, the main ones being that aircraft dont need to be identified for a FIS and traffic info is not given from radar derived information. What service a pilot gets depends not only on what he is looking for but also on controller workload. A RIS is obviously higher workload so can be refused.

In the UK in class E a pilot will be passed traffic information on IFRs. No avoiding action will be given to the VFR. It is up to the pilot to maintain his own seperation. VFRs dont need to tell ATC that they are in class E airspace, so it is not a totaly known environment to ATC, therefor traffic info etc can only be passed on known traffic.

priscilla
18th Jul 2003, 16:19
thanks to you all, I think it's clearer now.
Comprehension would be better next time with a UK VFR ..:D