JAA Rip-Off

[cjp]

How can the JAA possibly charge me to look at their regulations? Perhaps I've had too many beers at the end of a long day, but I cannot for the life of me find on their site a reliable source for the JAA-FCR 1.155(b), which is apparently the experience requirement for conversion of an ICAO non-JAA CPL to a JAA CPL, according to LASORS.

Speaking of which, any suggestions on the best way to head towards a CPL/ATPL? Before you jump at your own personal "obvious" option, I'm an Aussie with Aussie, British and Irish citizenship, all three passports, I have a South African PPL, I have family in Sri Lanka and am entitled to citizenship there should I elect to pay the appropriate (extortionate) fee for it, and I currently live and run a business (i.e. I shouldn't leave for extended periods of time) on the corner of Switzerland, Germany and France (I live in Germany, but within a literal stone's throw of the Swiss border). I did my uni degree in the USA, and swear never to return, so you can at least count THAT option out.

Despite all of this, I am currently grounded on my PPL, as a) the French won't let me fly as I live in Europe and therefore my ICAO licence cannot be validated there, b) the Germans are typically embroilled in their paperwork and haven't gotten back to me (nor have they answered, let alone RETURNED my phonecalls), and c) the Swiss will let me fly after completion of a "mountain fllying" course, after which they insist on ripping me off to the tune of 200-odd Euros for a C150 wet hour, landing fees and taxes (extortionate) not included.

Trolling through various aviation documentation sites, I am currently trying to establish the best place to continue training.

Sure, I don't expect anyone to know - and I'm sure I can sort it out for myself in the end. In the meantime, I'm just having a little bitch before I go back to those other currently open Mozilla tabs, and the beer in the fridge...

Ciao,

cjp

[Grypen]

Try here for a downloadable PDF:

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/fcl/document.asp?groupid=292

Also here's an outfit I have sent an email to about doing a distance learning course for my Aussie frozen ATPL to JAA ATPL:

http://www.flyaft.com/

Hope this helps, there's generally not enough people trying to help one another in this community. We're going through some rough times as an industry and I hope I can generate a little goodwill instead of doing what most here do and denigrate people.

Grypen

[redbar1]

CJP,

The JAA has never charged anyone for visiting the JAA website (http://www.jaa.nl) , and selecting "JARs" from the left hand menu, and then "Section 1" on the top of the page.

There you'll find Section 1 (the regulatory material) of ALL the published JARs, and absolutely no credit card needed! So the "JAA rip-off" in your topic header gets a big negative. ;)

You will want JAR-FCL 1 (Aeroplane). It's a .pdf-file, and you will probably like to scroll to page 55 "pdf-wise", page 1-D-1 in the paper version. There you'll find 1.155.

Cheers, enjoy, and good luck!
RedBar1

[dorosenco]

CJP,

Grypen gave you two very usefull web sites. Read the LASORS, forget about the JAA documents. The LASORS includes all the JAA regulations and is VERY specific on License Conversion and Validation for the UK/EU Airspace.
Being a EU citizen and living in the EU forbides you from validating your non-JAA PPL. That's for sure. If you could proove that you live in Sri Lanka you could get your PPL validated for 2 years max in ONE and only ONE of the JAA countries.
First thing, get your JAA ATPLs written out of the way. You can do that with any ICAO PPL. Then, look into a CPL training. You could go back to South Africa and fly for cheap, or Sri Lanka in order to build you CPL hours.

There are always options out there...
;)

[Watchoutbelow]

Sounds like you have done far to much travelling around mate!
I don't know if this will work, but there is no harm in trying, convert your licence to an FAA ppl, shouldn't be much difficulty there, go out on holiday to the U.S
(Swallow your pride, and go back, its bad, but not the worst)
Do the Licence skills test in an approved JAA school, should be very easy (JAA ppl is far easier then any other PPL that I know of, commercial is a whole different ball game)
Build a few hours there.
(cause they don't charge the extortionist prices like they do in europe)
and Hey presto, you have a couple of more licences, a suntan and more hours in the book!

[letsrock2019]

hello, we are the same...
do not mess with switzerland and the OFAC, aviation school in Lausanne and in Zurich are a bunch of loosers controled by the OFAC which are just a bunch of idiots who hide behind some paperworks and swisslaws .they are unable to give you a true explaination of the mess the did.
Swissair and SWISS are swiss, so???and you can see where they are going.Switzerland is over, finished, overpassed,oldfashion...

the goal of the JAA is to not let foreign people coming in Europe and take European job unless they do a long convertion from their foreign licence to JAR license. I have decided to convert my ATP FAA(cfi, mei,) to a British license with Bristol ground school , then Jerez in Spain for my 15 hours instrument.
it costs a lot and you learn nothing very usefull, but the JAA sysem is like this, they do not really train pilot at a good level(well under FAA minimum requirement for the practical side). they train you to answer to the written tests. Personnaly I prefer to pay 54 pounds per tests in the UK and keep my money and go to the USA and buy a seneca 2 for 65 pounds/hour and have free ILS, free landing...So UK schools dont count on me, to spend my money in your damn country for the flight training.

Good luck to you!

[BEagle]

Bonjour, Ronch.....




.

[redbar1]

Letsrock,

I don't mind your ravings, but just to straighten out your facts:and you learn nothing very usefull, but the JAA sysem is like this, they do not really train pilot at a good level(well under FAA minimum requirement for the practical side) Just some examples for the record:

JAA PPL course minimum - 45 hrs
FAA PPL course minimum- 40 hrs

JAA IR course minimum - 50 hrs SE / 55 hrs ME
FAA IR course minimum- 35 hrs

JAA ATPL prerequisites requires at least 500 hrs on Multi Pilot Aeroplanes or in MP Ops on Commuter category A/C

and so it goes on.

Just as info for those reading this thread.

Cheers,
RedBar1

[letsrock2019]

effectively You can look at the min. hours for a license, look the same or about the same!!

the 5 hours difference make me laugh, when you think in the USA you can shoot the ILS ten times per day, and do 10 touch and go without paying a pound!When I did my training years ago in the USA, I totalised 50h instrument(40h was the minimum but you can do more if you want so cheap it is and ur cfi will suggest 50 h or more anyway), 70 ILS, 50 NDB, 45 VOR approach, 35 holds,35 circling maneuvers, 25 ARC DME, 65 vectoring, all this in a brand new seneca at 60 pounds/hour, and It costed me less than 4000$ then After I have been hired by a company who owned some turbo props, Now I totalise 500 h turbine(3000h total,500 hours multi), 300hours night, 160 ILS, 66NDB approaches,75 VOR APP, 70 holds, 95 Circle to land, 1850 h IFR,2600 landings,.......the only thing i didnt do for years was the arc DME.oh, and I do not talk about all the back course ILS I did which doesnt exist here.I have a sea plane license too done in the USA.


Actually you can count my hours by thousand(God bless America).
I have seen 2 types of pilot on the both side of this planet, the one who has flown for his license and who has stoped ,totally broke, and the other one, who still flies to keep his flight skill updated and finds cheap planes in some part of this planet to log hours.

Now look at the minimum requirement on airlines website, they ask for 1500h,and CPL . If any pilot think to get a job with the min required for a CPL license, I personaly think you can wait a long time before an airline call you.I am well above the minimum requirement(I received 3-5 calls per year for a flying job before 9/11), does it stop me to fly?. No, because a pilot who flies is a safer pilot. If you do not understand that, maybe you are right, send your resume to any airline and say you have the minimum required by the CAA, and we will see if they will hire you.it s really sad to hear that some guys here are just some minimalists and who are still arguing about JAR and FAR difference when we talk about security and not only the hours you did for your license.:ugh:

So Good luck to all of you

[Send Clowns]

Letsrock

Don’t mean to be harsh, but I suggest you stick to what you know. There are, even now, airlines hiring pilots on minimum hours in Europe. Historically in the “good times” a decent candidate can expect a job reasonably quickly at this stage, with either a commuter airline or a smaller short-haul charter operator. Even BA would take on a handful of pilots from this background. Of course, many of their cadet pilots only had around 170 hours when they started the type rating.

Not only is the training business very different in the US, but so is the job market. Traditionally many students go quickly into well-paid jobs rather than hanging around teaching for a couple of years on lousy pay. As you point out he cost of training here is high, so the business in a free market will naturally settle this way, at least during times of relative pilot shortage.

You are not contributing to the debate, except to confuse and cloud the issue.

[redbar1]

Letsrock

It is always nice to know that pilots gets as much training and experience as possible, as some seem to need that.

I do not pretend to possess all knowledge there is about aviation, as I only have a quarter century's experience as pilot, instructor, examiner, etc, but still a word of advice: Re-read Send Clowns posting over and over again!

Cheers,
RedBar1

[RVR800]

JAA-FCL

This legislation has and is continuing to work to the detriment of pilots in the UK. The effect of JAR-FCL is to continue exporting jobs out of UK

JAA-FCL has resulted in

1. Increased cost
2. Increased difficulty
3. increased time
4. Reduced chances of a job

(Now that EU citizens are taking UK jobs
as all the collapsing airlines offload pilots into UK low cost)

Consolidation and downsizing will continue.

Its all good news for the punter as flight costs have never been
lower and airlines run harder and harder to stay in business..

The problem with this business is its subsidised by pilots
who are obsessed with flying.. There is very little money
in it...

We would have been better just adopting FAA rules and regulations in the UK and ignoring all this politically driven cr@p.