Afternoon short/ 8 am starts

[6 string]

What does everybody think of the above shift ?

We had a situation the other day where we only had 6 controlers for 4 positions, two of which had to leave at 8pm because they were in at 8 am the next day.

The main problem being that certain sectors cannot be bandboxed at 8pm due to traffic loading, leading to the possibility of controllers going out of hours.

On the day the problem was resolved by raising the TSF to 4 above the recommended level before 8pm in order to shift some of the backlog.

Surely this cannot continue, running sectors above TSF with the absolute minimun number of controllers required.

Answers on a postcard please.

[FWA NATCA]

Sounds like you guys have the same problems that we do, management unwilling to utilize overtime to ensure adequate staffing.

Mike

[DC10RealMan]

I may be naive but I thought that TSFs were set to allow a little bit of spare "thinking time" in the event of an aircraft declaring an emergency, pan, or other unusual circumstances. By increasing the traffic above the TSF would this not compromise that, and if so, should not the ATC staff concerned have a say in it?.

[5milesbaby]

If only DC10, I cannot remember the last time the actual CONTROLLERS were asked their thoughts about altering the TSF's either on an hourly basis or permenant basis.

6 string - I can see the reasoning behind the AS to D2, as it is a 'compromise' the union fought for to enable more of us getting our 4 days off. Why then more flexibility for spins hasn't been agreed to cover this shortfall you mention is unexplicable. All that is needed is 1 or 2 more either D5/6/7's (whatever your bank) and you can last at least until 9, or 11pm on southbank. But then that means all watches needing about another 2 or 3 controllers, and that vicious circle starts up again.... :ouch:

As for saying sectors CANNOT be bandboxed at 8pm, then you have to make sure that flow has been applied so they WILL be bandboxed at 8pm. So what about the delays, THAT'S NOT YOUR PROBLEM - an airprox due to being overloaded is (in part). Don't break your back due to feeling guilty about the delays, management put us all in this position, its about time they started facing the consequences of their actions.

[055166k]

6 String....consider filing, or at least have a chat to SRG. Your ATCO licence is not issued by your employer, it is issued by the CAA. I think the regulatory authority may take a dim view of the situation you describe; I suspect from your scenario that the approved emergency procedures could not have been complied with......there were no standby staff......additionally there was no cover for a whole spectrum of eventualities. Don't expect back-up from the LAS......they are no more than conduits for management pressure tactics......and of course not holding a validation removes all the safety protocols that the shopfloor "scopey" might consider relevant. I also suggest that you contact your union rep and start to note down in a diary all instances of the type you mention. IF YOU PUT UP WITH THIS IT WILL BECOME THE RULE RATHER THAN THE EXCEPTION! On the day this occurred I suspect that the watch manager/watch supervisor /flow manager/Local Area supervisor all went home with a little smile on their face....."Boy we conned those wetbacks again" .......and they did , didn't they?

[250 kts]

6 string,

you must file a 1261 on the above incident. There is no provision to go above the TSF including the 10% discretion and certainly not without the agreement of ALL the controllers affected.

Management were desperate for the 0630 starts to try to eradicate delays first thing which are then very difficult to get rid of for the rest of the day. They were aware that this would have a knock-on affect at the end of the day but that is tough when you don't have enough staff to man the place.

Next time you are on a pm shift ensure with the LAS that appropriate flow has been applied to allow a bandbox if necessary and if not that all have agreed to upping the rates.

Remember that you as a planner can always impose MDIs if things are getting too busy and they would have a real problem arguing against that one!

[63000 Triple Zilch]

6 String
Its all very well others suggesting that you file a 1261, but for what? Were you overloaded? It may well be that it was felt that after the LAS looked at the flight list he felt that there would not be a complexity issue running at 4 above TSF. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY HE IS THERE!!! It seems that if you were not overloaded then it was good use of available resources.
055161k
Many LAS's hold Tac and/or Planner validities. This is so that they can keep in touch with "the shop floor". By keeping their validities they are in a very good position to determine exactly what is feasible.
It seems that the general consensus is that an LAS is as useful as a cup of ice in a snowstorm. However he is there in part to increase the efficency of the flow measures in place. It seems that on this instance that is exactly what he [or she] did.
But then of course maybe he was lucky!!!

[250 kts]

Yes that is why he is there but any increase in the TSF should be with the agreement of all the staff concerned.

As for the TLPD and flight lists-if they were 100% accurate then fine but look at the HRN overload a couple of days ago and the subsequent incident which occurred. On this occasion there was no flow on but a spike had been identified and supposedly was going to be OK but was not OK in reality.

There is no doubt that delays are down but there is increasing unease throughout the watches that many of the sectors are being run very close to capacity often with insufficient staff to split accordingly when required eg. 7 for 6.

[055166k]

Just crawled in from work. LAS played a blinder this morning. Brand new untested procedures for Cardiff Airspace complex introduced, absolutely no consideration given, TSF exceeded with 25 in 30 minutes. LAS a little surprised to receive overload report, probably thought it was "feasible". Becoming quite a normal thing now.......there appears to be a culture of power without responsibilty or accountability as far as the LAS is concerned.

[Arkady]

Thats four overloads in five days.