Descent speed?

[springbok449]

I wanted to know what kind of speeds you were expecting us to do in the descent, does 280kts seem acceptable?
When you tell us no speed in the climb (especially below FL100) do you expect us to accelerate or is it at our discretion?
Regards,
Bokkie.

[radar707]

280kts is fine if we de-restrict you, but if we ask you to keep your speed up in the descent, then we would appreciate you doing just that.

As for no speed on climbout, then we have no speed restriction, it's up to fly whatever is best for the a/c or SOP's etc.


Also depends on the class of airspace you're in, in a known controlled airspace environment (Classes A-D), then the see and avoid principle does not apply, however in Class E airspace (Mainly the Scottish TMA around Glasgow and Edinburgh), then you will transit from class D (Known) to class E (unknown) controlled airspace where the see and avoid principle applies, as does the 250kts speed limit.

[055166k]

If you are outbound and told "no ATC speed restriction" then fly at your own speed if you are in Controlled airspace. If you are inbound you will probably have been given a STAR, the chart will give useful descent planning information and also a speed limit point. ATC may impose speed restrictions for traffic sequencing or to relieve overloading the holding stacks by absorbing some delay en route. Some operators may have a ground handling problem such as non availability of "gates"; this could be due to early arrival.......or an arrival before the end of night curfew...in which case the pilot may wish to slow to an uncharacteristic speed....... please tell us because a lot of control techniques depend on anticipated and normally observed performance profiles. ATC probably know as much about the performance capabilities of your aircraft [ from a purely ATC point of view] as you do after several years experience. BA are very good at giving plenty of notice of their speed needs e.g. they will ask for a "250 knot " descent......not a problem at all if given adequate notice, but may need a modest level change or early descent so as not to unfairly impede other traffic. Whenever a new type appears in service we tend to watch with interest for a while, and gradually the word gets round.

[Jerricho]

I have always been a big fan of the "Not less than" speed, either running to the holds or on intermediate/final approach. If you're not going to catch the one ahead, I'll issue a not less than, that way if you want to increase and go quick or slow you can, and I can speed the following accordingly.

It always makes me grin when not much about (and you Midland guys really crack me up with this!), and you issue a "free speed" or "you can increase if you wish" off LAM or BIG on Easterlies, and the response is "OK, here we go................" . Great stuff, and keeps it all moving. :ok:

"250kts below 10000, or on the ground..........."

[FlyingForFun]

Radar707, I'm curious about your comment that:In a known controlled airspace environment (Classes A-D), then the see and avoid principle does not applyAs a mainly-VFR pilot, my understanding is that, in Class D airspace, VFR traffic is not separated from any other traffic. Therefore, I will be looking out for other traffic, both VFR and IFR, and I will expect that traffic to be looking out for me. This is notwithstanding the fact that you know I'm there. (Likewise, in Class C, VFR pilots are not separated from each other, although your comments are obviously directed at IFR pilots so that's not directly relevant to this thread.)

Besides which, should the pilot not be looking outside to see and avoid in visual conditions in any type of airspace, even when you are providing separation for us?

Thanks,

FFF
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[radar707]

FFF, in Class D airspace, we know who is there be you IFR, VFR or SVFR, you're right, we don't separate IFR and VFR, but we do pass traffic information.

Clas E airspace is a whole different ballgame, it is controlled airspace but you do not need a clearance to enetr it VFR, therefore any radar contact we have in Class E airspace, which we do not know about, we have to try and avoid as best we can with IFR traffic, the stuff we have to avoid is generally a ppl out for a jolly, but because he's VFR, he could just pop up ahead of IFR traffic doing 300kts and I've no time to try and get my IFR traffic out of the way, I have to hope that if he's at a imiliar level, he can SEE & AVOID that traffic, at 300kts, it's unlikely he'd have time to react, hence the 250kts speed limit, which LEGALLY I cannot lift.

[FlyingForFun]

Radar707, agree totally with your last post.

It doesn't affect the fact that, as a VFR pilot, I'd treat a Class D control zone and (European) Class E control zone exactly the same way, i.e. talk to the controller (even though it's not required in Class E), hope for traffic information, but basically rely on my own eyes.

But I can see, from your last post, how the two types of airspace are completely different from the controllers' point of view, and how that's relevant to this thread.

Thanks!

FFF
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[Scott Voigt]

Just so no one gets the wrong impression....

In the US, see and avoid is ALWAYS in effect in ANY airspace at all times by federal law...

regards

Scott

[Spodman]

Same in Orstralia Scott.

We are going to have the same E airspace situation in November, with E outside 40 miles from most capital cities. How would pilots feel about "Max speed below 10,000, cross 40 ML above 10,000"?

[West Coast]

I believe the exception to the above in the States is when IMC. I suppose you could consider the metal detector an extension to the see and avoid theory.

[Second Grace]

If you think that 'see and avoid' works, you need to check up on all the mid-air collisions involving gliders Big clear canopies, low closing speeds, lots of 'awareness' don't prevent a crop every year.

This certainly is not going to work in a jet.

Good debate - keep it going!