Gate 6 - EDI's wide body disgrace?

[Joe Curry]

A follow-up from John Rice concerning his Air Transat flight
reported elsewhere in this forum. John's letter to BAA is in the public domain at his request

____________________________

To whom it may concern:

I was born & raised in Glasgow Scotland, and have lived in Canada for the past 30 years. I have flown back to the UK at least every 2-3 years, and coupled with visits to Canada, by relatives, there is a fair amount of transatlantic traffic.

In past years I have flown into Prestwick, then Glasgow or London, but this year, chose a direct flight to Edinburgh.

Arrived May 30th, left on June 13th.

My letter to you is to complain about the way our flight, an Air Transat A330 was handled at EDI.

On arrival, the Airside walk way was not working at the designated gate, and the mobile stairs had to be used, the first set failed, and a second unit had to be brought in, even then, it took about 10 min for the service crew to align the stairs with the aircraft, resulting in a 30 min delay in deplaning. Given the fact that we had just ended a seven hour flight, not a great welcome or first impression for overseas visitors to the Scottish
capital.

On departure, the aircraft was assigned Gate 6. that is just to the left of the security screening area. Very narrow, almost a corridor with seats provided as an after thought. All incoming and outgoing passengers from gates 1-5 passing through it, trying to maneuver around, children, and those of us with no seats. Certainly not enough space to seat a 300 + passenger
load. The awaiting passengers, were scattered through out the area, taking up seats, were available for other gates. Gate 6 is not in my opinion suitable for a transatlantic wide body passenger load.

During our vacation we took a flight from EDI to Amsterdam, this smaller 737, left from Gate 3, with a large passenger waiting area, washroom facilities close by, coffee and snack provisions, and a TV for those how wanted to watch it. No complaints on this flight.

Given the fact that transatlantic flights require a 3 hour check in prior to flight departure, I feel more planning is required on your part to accommodate this large group of passengers, if you intend to attract more long haul flights.

The second issue arose after we boarded the aircraft, the ground crew had problems loading the luggage pallets ( A330 use them instead of individual loads).

The had problems working the pallet loading equipment, and kept us on the ground for over 30 min resulting in an unnecessary delay.

Edinburgh Airport, for a small airport is well laid out, clean, hospitable staff and provides most of the amenities required by travelers, however, it seems to be geared for domestic and short haul European flights. As our visits to Scotland are based on the East Coast, I would prefer to fly in there.

Please help visitors arrive and leave with a good impression by at least moving these flights from Gate 6.

John Rice
Business Systems Manager,
IT Business Solutions

(Email supplied on request)

_________________________________

[Caledonian]

lol joe .....and you want emirates in there.

get a grip

[GustyOrange]

Surely it's time that BAA refused to accept long haul flights at EDI.

GLA copes no problem.

I'm really looking forward to next year when Emirates, PIA and US Air start operating from GLA.

Gusty

;)

[nighthawk117]

I'm really looking forward to next year when Emirates, PIA and US Air start operating from GLA.

Is it a bird......?
Is it a plane....?
NO, its a PIG!!!!!

Is that starting a service to GLA too?? :p :p

[GASH !]

Gate 6 at Edinburgh might not be the most ideal in your opinion, however it is the ONLY airbridge stand that can handle an A330 at EDI and the reason that an A330 will usually be allocated it.

[Joe Curry]

>>Is it a bird......?
Is it a plane....?
NO, its a PIG!!!!!

Is that starting a service to GLA too?? <<

The bragging is becoming unbearable...BAA fit-out and classify
GLA for long-haul and these guys actually believe the demand is
from the airlines!:mad:

EDI's bmi baby route to Cardiff was some 22% more popular than
GLA and the 'spotters' blame airport charges.

The same charges are in effect at EDI but EDI pays its way.

The derision from GLA's perimeter fence continues but have they worked-out why EDI outperforms GLA on every route it is allowed to compete over.?:rolleyes:

[JW411]

Apart from the lack of decent ramp space and facilities, I would have thought that operating wide-bodied aircraft into and out of Edinburgh on a regular basis was not the best idea in the world.

The place doesn't even have a proper taxiway and it seems ludicrous that in the year 2003 we have to backtrack and go round turning circles at the end of the runway whilst everyone else has to wait patiently for the runway to become available again.

Another couple of thousand feet of runway would also be rather useful.

I speak with 8 years of DC-10 experience and haven't landed at Edinburgh since last Wednesday!

[Sheep fancier]

"The derision from GLA's perimeter fence continues but have they worked-out why EDI outperforms GLA on every route it is allowed to compete over.?"

Glasgow Prestwick International,

SF

[GustyOrange]

Evening Times tonight reporting that Emirates are soon to announce a Glasgow - Dubai rotation. Hopefully we will soon be seeing an Emirates A330 on a daily basis.

Makes a lot of sense considering the engineering connections between the two cities. I know a lot of people personally who have to connect at AMS or BHX when travelling to Dubai.

Gusty

[682ft AMSL]

JC

......and these guys actually believe the demand is from the airlines!

Anyone who knows the first thing about air transport management, be it from an airline or airport operations perspective, knows that in a global liberalised air service market airlines are the sole arbiters of where services will be mounted.

If a service is launched from airport 'x' it will almost always be because that is where the airline in question wants to fly from. If the airline really wants to fly from airport 'y', but there are obstacles preventing them from doing so such as bi-lateral agreements, capacity restrictions etc, you will soon find a great deal of lobbying directed those who have the ability to remove said restrictions.

This is a pretty basic but fundamental aspect of the UK air transport industry, but judging from every post I've seen of yours, one which you seem to have absolutely no grasp of whatsoever. Go away, learn about the subject you like to spend so much time firing off e-mails about, and then lets have a proper discussion.

Regards,

682

[Joe Curry]

>>Makes a lot of sense considering the engineering connections between the two cities. I know a lot of people personally who have to connect at AMS or BHX when travelling to Dubai.<<

Anyone with any grasp of Emirates description as a business
airline must be wondering why the rumour of a GLA-Dubai is
actually getting airtime...


EDI is Scotland's number One business and tourist airport, why on earth should Emirates shoot themselves in the foot and fly from Scotland's holiday charter airport ay GLA .?

Unless BAA GLA have made an EDI service prohibitive.?

Unless BAA GLA are determined not to allow long-haul flights
from EDI.?

>>The place doesn't even have a proper taxiway and it seems ludicrous that in the year 2003 we have to backtrack and go round turning circles at the end of the runway whilst everyone else has to wait patiently for the runway to become available again.<<

EDI isn't excactly BAA's favourite Scottish Airport...maybe its
time for their Scottish Airports supremo, Donal Dowds, to be
put out to grass.?

>>If a service is launched from airport 'x' it will almost always be because that is where the airline in question wants to fly from. <<

Perhaps you haven't noticed that EDI/GLA have the same owners.? Is it any surprise that EDI is getting the Euro routes
and GLA exclusive long-haul.?

[sparkymarky]

Joe

Are we to take it from your comments that you'd rather have no Emirates service to Scotland, than a service to GLA? Is your attitude beneficial to the Scottish economy? Do you think you give the global audience of this site a good impression of how Scots people think?

<<Is it any surprise that EDI is getting the Euro routes>>

Can we also take it that you are unhappy that EDI has only got new services to Cologne, Prague, Madrid (perhaps others?) this year?

As a Weegie, the last time I flew to Prague it was via London with BA. Next time I fly it will probably be direct from EDI and I'll be very happy to give them my business. (Unless of course bmibaby decides PIK is worthy of a base and sets its sights on Prague!)

Either way, I'll be much happier choosing to fly direct from ANY central Scotland airport, than stopping off in London, Manchester, Amsterdam or wherever!

[cossack]

If Edinburgh want to be capable of serious of world wide services they need to increase 07/25 by at least 500m, with the appropriate PCN to match.
Its been 06/24 for a few years now!!!
BAA have never, and probably will never spend enough money on EDI.

[682ft AMSL]

Joe, what part of " airlines are the sole arbiters of where services will be mounted" don't you understand?

If Emirates chose to fly between GLA-DXB, it is because Emirates want to fly from GLA, not EDI. Airports being owned by the same operater does not stop airlines making the correct business choices for their business. Plenty of airlines have switched routes between the BAA owned LHR and LGW in order to boost the profitability of said route(s)

It seems to me your looking for any other reason to explain why some airlines chose to fly from GLA other than the one which is obvious to anyone who has even a basic undertstanding of the business - because those airlines want to.

It really is that simple.

682

[ecj]

At least Prestwick have a railway station as an attractive option and an interesting charging policy to attract airline customers.

[Blue Boy]

Joe,

Before I get started, I think it's time you got out of the house for a while, or is Livingston another dream world as well.

Anyway, back to the topic. How can you seriously say so much cr*p in the space of two posts, and expect people to take you seriosuly.....:rolleyes:
If EK, US, PK, or any other airline choose to fly to Scotland, then all the better for us, and our economy. As I've said many times before, the airlines will fly where the business is. That in our case, is the West.

And, before you start bleating on about conspiracy theories (Celtic Fan, perhaps), favouritism, and all your usual rants, I think you had better stop taking photographs of aeroplanes and actually take an interest in the airlines, and the economical factors which govern their operations. It's not just a case of putting SLF on seats, you have to take into consideration such things like Cargo, Airport Facilities, etc. One thing we all know EDI does not have.

Life in the airlines is different on the other side of the perimeter fance mate. BTW, stop berating those poor anoraks who spend hours on end at the fence taking photos' of aircraft.

Time for a wee drink:E

[Fosters Expat]

Dear Mr Curry,

Not quite sure how you turn a complaint of poor facilities at EDI into one of your normal GLA battering's.

Don't quite see how the two are related.

The complaint is valid, and a reasoned explaination has been provided by someone in the know. You don't work in the aviation industry, so why not listen to those who offer you advice and direction. They are in the know, and I suggest that maybe it is time you sat back, and relaxed a little.

Stop trying to argue that one airfield is better than the other. You highlight nothing of interest, and nothing of relevance.

I am assuming that you will ignore all that is written, and continue with your one man crusade against GLA airport, but maybe, just maybe, you may give in on this issue.

Blueboy,

DXB-GLA direct. That should keep you happy, and will certainly assist, spreading the love!

[Lt Manuel Hung]

Joe Curry .....

Earlier in this thread you wrote "The bragging is becoming unbearable". A mere five posts later you wrote "EDI is Scotland's number One business and tourist airport". Huh?

Anyway ....

Your continual ranting makes about as much sense as the whinging halfwit you quoted in your opening post. He bleats about not enough seats at Gate 6 for the 3 hour wait for his flight, although he had previously flown from Gate 3 and commented how nice it was round there. What's the distance from 6 to 3 .... 50 yards? Same goes for the toilets, which are even closer.

Granted there were problems with loading and stairs on this git's flights, but that's just bad luck. Not sure how many Edinburgh flights I've done in the last couple of years (and I'm not about to start counting), at least a couple of hundred I suppose, with very few problems of the nature described (although 737's don't need pallet loaders of course). Some people (JC included) really need to get a grip on reality.

[Joe Curry]

>>Before I get started, I think it's time you got out of the house for a while, look what happened to 'The Guvnor', or is Livingston another dream world as well. <<

I take exception to the inference above...

What's wrong with you guys, can't you stand a debate without
throwing in the insults? :mad:

[Lt Manuel Hung]

Aw Joe, Joe, me old sparring partner ..... don't take it so seriously man. I doubt very much that Blue Boy is suggesting you enjoy the same distasteful activities that have rightfully landed The Guvnor in jail, nor that you are a serial fraudster trying to start up fake airlines. It seemed more like a reference to NDR's lack of connection to Planet Earth, and the unshakeable conviction that he was an aviation expert .... I would have thought that the parallel was obvious :-) Only you could take a quote from someone ranting about how crap Edinburgh is for A330's and turn it into an anti-BAA / anti-Glasgow thing.

Now then, what about that debate you were referring to? The guy you quote is just a moaning git isn't he?

[JW411]

I have tried already to introduce some common sense into this debate from my viewpoint which is as someone who has been flying aircraft for 46 years.

It is quite true that the runway (06/24) and the landing aids available at EDI are perfectly adequate for landing just about any type of wide-bodied aircraft in the world in the event of a diversion but the problems begin at the end of the landing roll.

Has Mr Curry got any experience of trying to taxy a wide-bodied aircraft like a DC-10 for example? If so, then he would realise that whilst going round the turning circle at the end of the runway, the crew are actually over the grass because the nosewheel is so far behind them.

In the good old days of Freddie, we used to go into Luton once a week (it didn't have a proper taxiway either) and the only way we could make sure that we didn't go on the grass was to get the F/E on the interphone at the opened front left passenger door to tell us just how far the left truck was from the runway edge. This used to impress the hell out of the passengers at the front of the aeroplane!

To get things into perspective, a DC-10 needs an absolute minimum of 144 feet to complete a 180° turn and the average runway is 150 feet wide.

Then we come to the question of taxiways. Can you imagine how easy it would be to put a truck over the side on a 90° turn on to a narrow taxiway? Such an incident could block the airfield for hours and hours.

Then we get to the gate. A dual jetway would be perfect so that we can disembark and embark passengers from 2 doors. (It takes about 45 minutes to board a full load of punters). Has Edinburgh got such facilities? Just how many gates do they have that can cope with even one door?

What facilities does Edinburgh have for handling LD3 and LD6 baggage containers?

The list is endless.

Then we get to think about departing. Where are we going? We sure as hell aren't going to contemplate LAX or MIA. The runway is simply not long enough. In fact, PIK was only just about long enough in the good old days of Laker.

Let's face it, Edinburgh as it stands is simply not a credible long haul scheduled airfield and never will be until someone spends a hell of a lot of money on it. I have no experience of GLasgow airport and long haul operations so I cannot possibly comment but I do remember being told by one of my old F/Os, who is now a 747 captain with NW at MSP that they were restricted with the DC-10 on take-off out of Glasgow but that everything else worked out just fine.

If I could be permitted a moment of nostalgia, doing Laker flights out of Prestwick in the summer was such a pleasure. Scottish Express did a fantastic job and they were so professional. I particularly remember Arthur W. who was about the most professional dispatcher I have ever met.

[MerchantVenturer]

Thanks a million JW411.

Yours is the sort of post that elderly air groupies like me enjoy.

Laker - takes me back to the time where I could remember being a young man.

As for Joe Curry, in many ways I admire his loyalty and single-mindedness towards his home airport, even if sometimes he appears to be speaking from the heart rather than from the head.

I am sure I have done this at times when I have sought to push the claims of my local airport.

[Bmused55]

Hi peeps

I've been perusing the Pprune forums for some time, but only ever posted once or twice.

Now, to set the record straight from the beginning. I'm not a Pilot and I'm not an airline employee (not that I wouldn't like to be either of these).

Being only 10 minutes away from Edinburgh Airport I naturally harbour a "loyalty" for said aerodrome.
I too would love to see long haul flights to and from from EDI, but as it stands at the moment, that won't happen. JW411 hit this on the nose :)

But Why?....IMHO: under investment.

EDI has not been given the chance to offer the facilites needed for long hauls and big jets in general as the cash just isn't there.

If EDI gets the investment it needs, that airport will likely become a hotspot for long haulers.

BAA are at this time I beleive planning on upgrading either GLA or EDI. Some sort of review committee is in the process of weighingup pros and cons for both ports.
If EDI wins out, it is to likely receive a second runway, all new taxi ways and new facilities to match the increase in load it will be able to take.

Heres hoping they pick EDI :ok:

Sandy
Bmused55

[682ft AMSL]

Having been tipped off, I see that some elements of this thread have been taken into a usenet group 'alt.airports.edinburgh.uk' where the merits of some of the views and individual contributors are being debated.

To those involved may I suggest that if they have anything to say about the views expressed above, they are big enough to say them here. In particular, could 'D.K' (initials) from the usenet group please make himself known, or contact me via the private e-mail function.

682

[GustyOrange]

I had a look at the newsgroup mentioned above and I don't understand one thing.

Why is there such clamour for long haul flights from Edinburgh ?

There has never been scheduled long haul flights at Edinburgh whereas there have been a number of l/h flights serving Glasgow over the decades. Does this not indicate that the demand is at Glasgow ?

Why should there all of a sudden be l/h flights from EDI NOW ?

Another point, perhaps someone in aviation could answer...

Would it not make more commercial sense to upgrade the GLA EWR rotation to a 777 in summer and 764 in winter instead of going double daily or introducing an EDI service? What are the costs of introducing another rotation relative to any increase in revenue ? Then there are the costs of setting up at another airport as well, marketing etc...

Gusty

[ajamieson]

Loosely on topic, from today's edition of The Scotsman... (http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/edinburgh.cfm?id=700482003)

[ecj]

Until BAA invest big time at EDI - forget it.

The main needs to increase by at least 500m with improved PCN.
Full length parallel taxiways [min 23m wide] not to mention a new terminal which could cope with the customers. More stands ????

Dream on.