Hour Building with NAC

[j0_ey]

I am planning to add to my 60 hours soon by doing plenty of hour building (80-90 extra hours), naturally I have chosen the US because of extortionate rates here in the UK. I have flown all my hours in Florida.

I checked out NAC (http://www.naples-air-center.com) and I am very much interested in the hour building options, such as flying across the US. But having read through it I am still somewhat confused, so I have a few questions :8

- Do I have to convert my license from JAA to FAA or can I get a Temporary Airman’s Certificate?

- Do I plan my own route

- Are there any restrictions i.e - Age, hours logged, certain airports and airspace, states etc

- On the site the estimated time it would take to fly to and from each destination is quoted using the C-172r, how long will each journey take in the Piper Warrior, the C-172 or the C-152?

- How are the hours calculated, is it the Hobbs time?

- Does the plane have to be flown everyday or can it be grounded for one or two days while in another state?

- Are there any other costs, other than the rental fee and obvious fuel prices.

- On the site what is meant by "Packages to be completed within 30 days"...?

- How long do you think it would take to achieve just under 100 hours?

Thanks very much (Sorry about the questions) :rolleyes:

j0_ey

[spitfire747]

hey jo-ey

best advice i can give you is to give NAC a call and ask them the questions. Nicky and Richard who run it are very approachable and friendly and will do everything to help you out. I did some hours there last year and was a great place to go.

Spitty

[onehunga]

Agree with Spitfire that NAC or any other US flight school will be able to answer most of the above for you.

As I have been to the US myself and flown 100 hours plus am planning on going back for some more in Sept you may want to consider the following:-

- why start off in Florida again? In Sept I am going to the West Coast to enjoy some "hot and high flying"

- irrespective of whether you go to Florida or somewhere else in the States do lots of research on prices. You will get cheaper rates if you hunt around. Just make sure that you know what type of aircraft and fit you are getting for your buck

- do a search of the private flying forums, as there are loads of threads about proposed routes throughout the States taking in some of the best sights, also loads of recommended places to rent

- be sure to understand what the fuel reimbursement policy is as prices vary widely.

Have fun. PM me if you want some more advice.

[j0_ey]

To be honest the reason I have been mainly interesting in NAC is because their website was by far the best, and it clearly laid out the X-Country hour building process. I am not quite sure whether other flight schools will allow someone to rent out a plane for as long as they do.

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Jo-ey,

I have not used NAC yet, but I will be travelling to NAC on the 3rd of July for a couple of FAA courses (CPL / IR). However I have hired aircraft on three seperate occasions to build hours both in Florida and more recently California.

To answer your questions:

- You will need to convert your JAA Licence to an FAA Certificate. This process used to be a quick but it now takes a little longer. As I expect the UK CAA issued your JAA PPL you will need to fill in two forms (one for the FAA and one for the CAA who incidentially require a £15 processing fee).

Once the FAA have received your form (fax it to them will be quicker than mail), they (FAA) will contact the UK CAA to verify your details, ie to ensure you do indeed have a licence.

Then it is a quick visit to the FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) with the letter of authenticity that the FAA will send you. The FSDO will have a copy of the letter. They will then issue you with a "Temporary Airman's Certificate" that is issued under FAA Part 61.75. Your new certificate details will be sent to the FAA headquarters in Oklahoma who will send a permenant FAA Licence to your home address within a couple of months of the visit to the FSDO.

The good thing about it is that the temporary airman's certificate is a valid licence for 90 days (enough time for you to receive your permenant certificate) so you can rent and fly N Registered aeroplanes as soon as you have the temporary airman's certificate (oh and have a valid BFR completed with a CFI).

See http://www.faa.gov/ for more information and the required forms.

- You do plan your own route.

- No Age Requirements with the exception of being at least 17 to hold a PPL.

- Hour Requirements for NAC are available here (http://http://naples-air-center.com/renters%20minimums%20and%20info.htm).

- Airspace Restrictions? Well I'd like to stay clear of the MOA's (Military Operation Area's) and such like if they are active, but other than that you are allowed to go anywhere you'd like (there are certain restrictions to Stident Pilots - ie pre ppl at certain Class B airports - ie the big ones like Miami Intl or Las Vegas Intl).

The US uses Class G (Uncontrolled), Class E (Controlled, normally associated with Victor Airways and / or airport transition areas with an associated instrument approach procedure that would otherwise be in Class G airspace), Class C which is associated with airports equivalent to our Birmingham etc. The only other one you'll need to worry about (except MOA's) is Class B but as long as you get a VFR clearance to enter the Class B airspace then you'll be allowed in. Class B is associated with fields such as Los Angeles Intl, New York JFK, Orlando Intl - you get the picture!

Talking about airspace restrictions in the United States. You are NOT allowed in Class A airspace UNLESS you have an Instrument Rating. But as all Class A airspace starts at 18,000' it shouldn't be a problem for us g.a. pilots!

The American's like to use the Semi Circular rule whereby if you are flying easterly you'd fly odd altitudes (IFR) Plus 500 feet (VFR), Westerly would be evens plus 500' (VFR).

You can fly on Victor Airways (Class E) without a clearance as long as you are VFR only. IFR traffic will require an ATC clearance. Saying that I always use Flight Following so ATC know about me at all times.

The only other restriction is that to fly within a radius of 30nm of a large Class B airport you will need a transponder with Mode C capability but most aircraft I have flown in the States have had this so shouldn't be a problem.

- I believe the Bahama's flights require extra flight experience but that is contained within the link I provided above.

- I'd reckon on using the same number of hours in the Piper Warrior as the C-172. In my personaly opinion I'd prefer to do the coast to coast and return in a Warrior simply because it feels a little bit more roomier. However I am biased towards low wing aircraft but that's probably for a different thread I suppose.

- All FBO's I've hired from in the USA have charged by the Hobbs time. Normally the hobbs time was derived from the engine, but some places start the hobbs when the master switch is switched on... However don't take my word on this. The hobbs time is a real kick in the teeth after being used to paying tacho time on the groups Beagle Pup that I fly here at home in the UK!!!

- On the site what is meant by "Packages to be completed within 30 days"...? - Quite self explanatory - This means the 50 hours you pre-purchase must be flown within a period of 30 days from purchase.

- NAC have a 4 hours minimum per day policy if taken away for more than 8 hours. So each day you must do 4 hours. Or you could do 8 hours every other day leaving a day off in between flying days. Or you could do 12 hours one day, two days off and then fly again... etc etc... (you'd be knackered though) so basically if you take the plane away for 10 days you'd need to fly 40 hours, doesn't matter how you work that out though.

- The prices you pay are "WET" ie with fuel. You'll obviously be buying fuel away from base so ask NAC how much credit you will get per gallon of fuel as this does vary from school to school. If they give you $2 per gallon purchased and you buy fuel for $3.80 per gallon (I'm thinking about Las Vegas here!) then you'd loose out on $1.80 per gallon. However if you'd purchased fuel for $1.90 per gallon you'd gain 10 cents per gallon. BTW smaller fields generally charge less for fuel.

- I have flown 50 hours in each two week vacation I have taken (50 hours in Florida and 100 hours in California spread across two vacations). So give it a month and you'd have your 100 hours (wx dependant).

If you do a coast to coast then please take care... thunderstorm activity / weather etc... I don't want to sound patronising but just please be careful (2000 miles is a long way with several different types of weather you may (or may not) encounter).

Another point, to do a coast to coast I'd prefer a Piper Arrow. Its expensive and you do need 100 hours total time before they'll let you loose on your own (insurance requirements) but they are faster, the gear retracts and it has a variable pitch propeller. But the most important thing with the arrow is that it has a 200 HP engine. You'll see why that is a major factor once you get to the western states. High Altitidue runways, High Temperatures = High Density Altitude = High TAS against IAS (and you fly by IAS) = Crap Performance from your average 160 HP engine in a Warrior = very long take off / landing runs runs. I would *NOT* do a coast to coast or even tour around the western states with a C152 or Tomahawk. The power simply isn't there.

Good luck and have a great time flying coast to coast and back!!! You lucky &^*^$£ !!! ;-)

When are you going to NAC? I'm off on the 3rd of July for a month. But unfortunately I'm going to be based at NAC as I'm going for commercial and instrument courses.

Useful sites: http://www.airnav.com/ and http://www.faa.gov/

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu

[j0_ey]

Thanks for the great reply.

I have not yet booked anything with NAC. I am going out to Florida in November and I should be able to pop down there to check them out. Although my Hour Building trip will be planned (Like you said) in months of good weather. I am in no rush. I just like to know all the facts before committing to such a thing. :D

Thanks very much for clearing up the daily minimum hours for each aircraft. For the 100 hours or so I plan to gain, I hope to fly around 6-8 hours a day, so 3 weeks should be fine for the trip.

Would you say the Warrior and C-172r would "Struggle" at some of the western airports then (i.e. - Are some airports completely inaccessible), or would it just mean a longer takeoff and landing, I certainly don't want to get stranded anywhere or run off the end of a runway. :rolleyes: I am also used to flying low wing aircraft.

Cheers... :cool:

[FlyingForFun]

j0_ey,

Never used NAC, but I did some hour-building in the western USA - and had no problem at all getting a PA18 up to 12,000', and into airfields at 6000'. If the PA18 can do it, I'm sure a C172/PA28 will manage fine.

Do make sure you get a good briefing from someone who's current at mountain flying, though. The school I hired from was right at the base of the mountains, so I did a mountain cross-country with an instructor before going solo in that direction. That won't be possible if you're going to be hiring out of Florida.

Have fun!

FFF
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[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Jo_ey,

As FlyingForFun says a PA28 Warrior will be just fine over in the Western States, I was just stating my personal preference.

I have flown a couple of Warriors into and out of Big Bear City (around 6000' MSL) and had no problems at all. It just means the take off and landing runs will be longer due to the higher TAS you will be going for the same IAS you normally use. That coupled with slower climb performance. But I suppose this is true for all non-turbo charged piston engined aircraft.

Have fun over in the States! Upon your return you'll be wishing you were back over there with their "can-do" attitude towards general aviation.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[j0_ey]

Thanks a lot for the replies.

Now for the planning.

I want to fly from Florida towards Alabama, along the coast to New Orleans, then to Texas, New Mexico, Utah, Arizona and go over the Grand Canyon, Hoover Dam etc. Then onto California. From there towards South Dakota (Or there abouts) via Salt Lake City, and onto Chicago, from there I'll fly to Boston, New York etc via Indiana and Ohio, and then down the coast to Washington DC, through Virginia, N & S Carolina and Georgia back to Florida.

One BIG trip! All in under a month (Hopefully)

Are there any other sites of interest, airports, places etc worth visiting? Big Bear City looks great , I'll put that on my list :ok:

Also do you think there may be a problem with me being 18, especially for hotel rooms etc in the US? :confused:

Thanks

[FlyingForFun]

Hmm, that sounds fun. Room for a passenger? I don't mind squeezing into a suitcase or something.....

Not sure if this would fit into your timescale or not, but while you're in Arizona, I'd recommend heading south from the Grand Canyon, and stopping at Sedona.

The airport is mainly used by local aircraft taking tourists over the mountains. Its short runway is on an incline, so you'll be landing uphill and taking off downhill unless the wind is very strong. (The wind was very strong when I was there, but blowing straight across the runway - I gather this is quite common.)

Speak to a company called Pink Jeep Tours. They have some excellent professional off-road drivers who really know their stuff. And they'll collect you from the airport, too.

If you schedule is too tight to stop there, I'd still recomend flying south and making a small detour - there is some beautiful scenery down there.

I don't recall anyone asking me for my age when I booked hotel rooms, but a credit card will be very handy. And of course you know that you won't be able to drink alcohol - but if you're flying every day, you probably wouldn't want to anyway.

Have fun! And if you manage to get on-line, you could always start a thread with a diary of your adventure as you go! (It would probably fit in better in Private Flying than Wannabes.)

FFF
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[j0_ey]

Yes Sedona would certainly be on my list, the scenery around there looks stunning. I will most probably be spending most of my time in Arizona, Such is the awe inspiring sites to be seen.

Does overnight parking (For the plane) cost much on US airports and would I need to pre book a space? I plan to have every overnight stay in accomodation prebooked so any problem with parking would complicate things.

Hopefully a credit card should be the only thing I need, I have had problems before trying to get rooms.

[Julian]

Charlie Zulu,

Whilst doing my Big Bear checkout with a mate (to enable us to take hired aircraft there), was chatting to a local in the cafe who kept his there. He threw into the conversation that a couple of people die there each year and they always end up in the trees at the end of the runway before the lake!

FFF is spot on - get yourself an instructor to brief you and do a flight or two with you first before you go solo, high altitude flying can be a completely different ball game.

Julian.

[j0_ey]

Thanks for that info. Hopefully I'll be able to stop off at an airport at the base of any mountain or high altude airports, so I can get an instructor to take me up.

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Julian,

I've learnt something new today! I didn't realise that they have a few people die at Big Bear every year... such a lovely place as well.

The first time I went to Big Bear was with an Instructor in an Archer... Wouldn't have dreamt about going alone for the first time even if the school allowed me to. The school rules aren't there for the fun of it!!!

After learning to fly in the UK and flying only around the UK and Florida before the trip to California (my first flight was my checkout to Big Bear) didn't prepare me one little bit for the limited performance one obtains from high altitude airports (especially when its hot as well!!! - Density altitudes above 10,000' hmmm...).

Flying over in the western states also teaches you to use that under used (imho) red lever next to the throttle / rpm - the mixture!!!! Most definately pay more attention to the mixture lever now.

Oooh you've just reminded me of the lovely food in the Big Bear Cafe.... now I really do need a trip back to California soon. Might go next spring for a couple of weeks (Florida next month for the FAA CPL/IR).

Jo_ey,

You mentioned something about a credit card... well I've had 3 flying holidays in the states and whilst a credit card would be handy at small fields with self service fuel, only one field I have landed at was so equipped. The others had a bowser and I paid by either cash or travellers cheques (didn't want the big credit card bill when I get home!).

First flying holiday was when I was 22 (4 years ago) and that was in Florida. No problems and I can't see any problems with an 18 year old flying around by him/herself. Just remember the drinking laws are quite strict over there - 21yrs of age!!!!

Personally I wouldn't pre-book the accommodation at the start of your trip - the weather can and will change and you'll end up having to cancel the hotel (probably not as much as you would in the UK, but it does happen!). Maybe fly somewhere, have lunch then decide where to spend the night, ring ahead to the FBO, get they to arrange cheap "Crew Hotel Rates" and then fly to the night stop... that's the way I've done it in the past.

I'll also second (or third?) the comments made about Sedona... gorgeous scenery. Unforuntately as I was at the Grand Canyon during the day, I only had time for an evening dinner at Sedona airfield before returning back to L.A. completely at night (using the IFR charts for the MEA's etc (still flew even+500 though before anyone asks) - very handy when you can't see the mountains!). The L.A. basin at night is just awsome after the dark desert - those REIL's at Brackett helped trying to identify the runway amongst all of those lights!

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[j0_ey]

I understand that I would need cash for fuel etc, most of the time anyway. It's just that I'd need a credit card to book a room in a hotel, or at least I think that's all I'd need. :bored:

Does anyone have any experience flying through any of the Northern or Eastern states, like - Washington, Montana right through to New York and Virginia. I have been to pretty much all of the Eastern coastal States, but I haven't flown there. Is it far more busier :confused:

Thanks :O