Another way in?

[stevethescotspilot]

After much thought and consultation I am almost at the stage where I have decided to put my flying training on hold.
If I was to go ahead and join the September course in Jerez I would hopefully graduate with an ATPL when I was twenty. However, that's all I would have. No money and probably no job. (although there is a chance of getting recommended while on the course, it's too slim to pin my hopes on)
This means that if the industry is as bad as everyone is making out, all my friends would be getting degrees and establishing themselves while I would be firing off endless application forms for too-few jobs.

I need to know if this is the case. What realistically are the chances of getting a FO job straight out of flight school?
I don't want to gamble everything and then end up in a meaningless job because the airlines weren't hiring and my ATPL became meaningless.

IMHO a better option would be to build up a career in another part of the industry, eg ATC, which I'm sure would be equally rewarding, gain financial independence, 'get inside' the industry and make a few contacts, and keep the PPL going before re-evaluating in six or seven years' time and perhaps then booking up that place on the ATPL course in Jerez.

Its a massive decision to make and I'd like to hear some opinions, particularly from anyone who could say for sure what the job situation is like and whether it's wise to press on or wait a few years.

Look forward to your replies,
Thanks,
Stephen Moyes :sad:

[machonepointone]

Stevethescotspilot,

I can understand your reluctance to commit a huge sum of money right now when the future looks fairly bleak. However, I have been in the aviation business one way or another since, well for a long time. In particular I have been involved with civil aviation since 1985, and one thing I have noticed over the years is that it is either boom or bust,

Right now it is bust, which means that sooner or later it is going to get better. I admit that you would be pushing your luck a bit to commit to a course the way things are just now. However, you said that it is the September course you were thinking of joining, which means that by the time you had finished everything it would be around the end of 2004 by the time you were in a position to begin job applications. I have no idea what the job situation will be by then, and although I am not suggesting that you change your mind about the September course, I do recommend that you keep tabs on the industry. If you see signs of an upturn then my advice would be to get your name down for a course. By the time you have graduated it is likely that a large percentage of recent graduates from all the schools will have got jobs and that could well leave you ideally placed.

As an alternative to doing an integrated course, have you thought of the modular route? At the risk of sounding condescending, if you do not know what that is, it is a means whereby you can get your CPL/IR a bit at a time. Starting with a PPL, hours build, get a night rating followed by a CPL, then multi-engine rating followed by IR. It involves a whole lot less initial outlay with the added advantage that once you have a PPL you can get a reduction on the hours you would have to do on an integrated course.

I was lucky when I learnt to fly because the Queen paid for it, but whichever way you choose to go, I wish you luck.

[George Foreman]

Hi Steve,

I've re-registered as "George" since I last posted..my FI's nickname for me !

Just to reiterate what I may have said to you initially .. just my view on life with hindsight, but with very few regrets. Then make up your own mind..your instinct is all you have to go on.

Go and get a degree! You're well qualified for it. Do something you find interesting ... maybe physical science or engineering subjects: these will put you in good stead for a flying career, or many other careers like law, finance and general management. Make a lifestyle choice between a more rural city or the big smoke, and consider some time in another European country. While you're at it, stay current, join the air cadets, the gliding club, and spend the last of your hard earned cash on a few launches in the summer.. if you go south I have fond memories of summer evenings at Lasham! Then take a view after that .. graduate job, postgrad qualifications or ATPLs, if you haven't already completed the exams distance-learning by then.

You have time on your side .. if you still want to be a pilot maybe don't leave it as late as me (32), but looking back I wouldn't have liked to have missed out on all that. On the face of it there is little to recommend it as you will be poor and it will be hard work at times, whereas you could go to Jerez and be embarking upon a good career by 20, as you say !

The feedback I'm getting is that whilst the airlines generally prefer to employ graduates, if you're sure of your chosen course, you can and will be employed as a pilot straight off at 20.

If you're really sure that is what you want to do, without a fall-back position ? If you are, I'll see you at Jerez in Sptember and we won't be looking back !

It is your life, you have a new map, resume own navigation, and enjoy the journey ..

George

[ecj]

Two options which you have received - get a degree, and then decide if you want to go to Jerez, or go to Spain in September.

If you had asked me a similar question 20 years ago, I would have said go flying NOW.

Today however I think, on balance, the advice would be to obtain a degree [does not have to be aviation connected] , then consider flying.

If you wish to be "recommended" by the FTO, work hard at ground school, first time passes - average 85%+ : achieve better than average in the flying progress tests, and a first time pass of the IRT. Good MCC as well.
Probably the most important feature is that you are a "team member". CRM etc etc.

You then stand a chance of being noticed, unless you have your connections in aviation.

Remember the FTOs do have their connections on the outside.

[Pilot Pete]

Lets put a bit of bluntness on the subject. The market is at it's worst for newly qualified low hours pilots. Low hours is a relative term and with no turbine or jet time you will still be considered to be 'low hours' even when you have 1000TT. That's the harsh reality. The other problem is that the opportunities for building hours after qualification are few and far between due to the massively increased competition for these jobs. The market has not been this bad for a decade. There are many, many qualified pilots on the market who are currently jobless.

The advice about getting a degree cannot be questioned. think about it logically, it is a qualification which may well put you in a better position when job seeking, whatever field you choose, often it is a pre-requisite. I would however like to ask George Foreman which airlines are giving him his 'feedback' about degrees? From experience I would say it is contacts, followed by number of hours, type(s) flown, type of operation and general experience (commensurate with age, as they say) which gets the interviews. I know many pilots who do not have degrees, or even A levels, but it has not stood in their way. When you call on the telephone I am sure you will be met with the 'we prefer degrees' answer, but reality is certainly somewhat different. This is not to say that having a degree won't make a difference, it may well do when you are in the melting pot with all the other newly qualified pilots with no experience, but even then it mainly comes down to contacts and right place/ right time to take up any opportunity.

The one thing that is certain is that only the most determined and dedicated (spattered with a few very lucky) will be successful, if you have to think long and hard about continuing then perhaps that should in itself be an influence on your decision? This game has never been easy to get into and has always cost a small fortune for non-sponsored (read the majority) pilots, nothing new there. The odds are stacked against anyone gaining employment straight after qualification. Do not think that you will get a recommendation from a big flight school - you might, but the odds are against you there also.

So all in all it does make the rational person wonder why the hell would anybody get into this game in the first place? The fact is it comes down to how much you want to do it. Only you can decide that. If you want it enough you will make it, but it may take a long time and a lot of hardship getting there. Sit back and look dispassionately at it. You will come up with the obvious answer which is to get a degree and do something else. Then ask yourself if you would be satisfied with that. If you have to fly make a plan, if it includes a degree and waiting for the market to pick up then fine. Consider all the permutations. It could be argued that now is a very good time to start training as you would be qualified in say 2 years then if you instructed to build the hours another couple of years would pass and then you may be in a very good position to apply to the airlines at the start of an upturn in the market (just a guess as I have no more insight than you!) so that when the next downturn in the cycle occurs you are well away from the bottom of someones seniority list in your employer of choice.

My advice? Do what you feel you have to do, but make sure you review all your options and go into it with your eyes fully open. Do not assume you will get employed by an airline once you qualify, have a backup plan to keep current/ build hours and to earn cash. Degree? Certainly useful if you want to do something else and now would be a good time to get one, but don't think you must have one to enhance your pilot employablilty. I personally would learn a trade which can earn you good money if you can't get a flying job straight away............

Good luck

PP

[Obs cop]

Steve,

Be careful about what you want. I had the choice to become a military ATCO, and whilst it would have kept me involved in the flying world, it wasn't flying.

I turned it down because I couldn't bear the idea of watching all those people doing what I wanted sooooooooo much.

If you wil be satisfied in some other aviation role then good on you. The demands, lifestyle and skills, whilst linked by the aviation field, are not the same even though they can be equally rewarding in their own unique ways. If all you do is eat, breath and dream about flying, nothing else is likely to fill that void.

Be careful what route you choose, but ultimately there will be an upturn in the market. No-one can predict the size and timing, but even now there are limited jobs out there. You never could just finish the course and guarantee a job. All that varies is the number of vacancies and by definition the competition for them.

Whether or not to embark on the flying training route is a personal decision based on an calculated risk, balanced against desire to achieve your goal. Granted it is a large risk at the moment.

Choose wisely my friend, but only you know what will satisfy your yearning.

PS. Don't even think of ATCO if you are not 120% comitted. It is a massively demanding job in its own right.

[George Foreman]

As someone who is at the same early stage as Steve, having considered very carefully the transition from private flying to a commercial career and associated training, I've found Pilot Pete's posting very helpful in setting out the reality of the market and the key issues. I've also had a look back on pprune and read his own personal story, which is both inspirational and a hard reality check on the sort of uncertainties which might lie ahead for those of us starting out as pilots. Professionalism and dedication against all the odds seem to be the critical success factors.

Sadly my post isn't based on very much direct contact with airlines, largely indirect from many and various conversations including FTOs. However I did engage in some conversation along with others (mostly but not exclusively students approaching graduation) at the recent flyer exhibition at Heathrow. The flight crew selection guy who spoke from BA, and the young lady from the FTO (Fogbound) recognised the (generalist) benefits of doing a degree, whilst also recognising that it was not a prerequisite qualification and that many pilots do not have degrees (other than their groundschool / ATPLs of course). That is why I added that it was very possible to get employment as a younger pilot without a degree .. and I would expect their chances of employment to driven by many of the same factors as everyone else's as PP says .. contacts, experience (hours, types), performance during training and as a person (including how you come across during interview and assessment of flying ability and CRM skills).

So, yes, my limited perspective to date (all I have to go on, I have no inside contacts of my own) seems to line up with PP's comments fairly well. Neither the Airlines or the FTOs (to my knowledge) will come out and say formally that a degree will in any way enhance your employability or ability as a pilot, but they certainly seem to respond favourably to the idea when pressed. It is not an issue which bothers me nor something I have persued personally .. I have two of the darned things and whilst they have been both interesting, rewarding, useful (and I would like to think relevent) I recognise that I too "need" to be a pilot (I can identify with that) and I'm starting out again in what is clearly one of the most exacting, demanding and ruthless of industries.

For what it is worth Steve I have made my decision and I am now pulling out all the stops to get to Jerez for this month's course. They have been very straight with me and have reinforced the position that whilst there are some signs of life / green shoots (these aren't direct quotes, just my own summary interpretation again) out there, it is not possible to predict the demand or otherwise for new pilots when I complete the course and any recommendations they make are based on consistently high performance in groundschool exams, flight tests and flight assessments.

Recognising that this is a highly cyclical industry, I do take some comfort in the longer term projections for growth in aviation, and hope that political and economic factors don't disrupt such forecasts too much. I'm hoping the forthcoming UK Aviation White paper will be a good read.

Cheers, and best of luck with whatever you decide to do

Richard

[Pilot Pete]

Glad to hear our experience seems to concur. Reality is that nobody is going to sway you away from doing a degree, but if you really don't want to do one or don't have one and are starting out on the rocky road to ATPL issue then don't be overly worried. It was a major concern for me when I was at that stage. I didn't have one and wondered if that would be a deciding factor when the airline(s) was faced with a choice of candidates.

My concerns were unfounded and I am yet to find an employer who has questioned my lack of degree, although I do have a ten year career in IT behind me and a reasonable 'splash' of interesting background (contradicting a recent post by Muggs!) I feel I have developed considerably as an individual both during the time when I may have been at university and since, and that, I think is important, especially if you are young and without degree. The airlines want to know what you have been doing with your life. As long as you can point out what you have been doing that shows some development and progression, preferably achieving something that took a bit of dedication and determination then you can still be very impressive at interview (if you put it across well enough!) Completing a degree shows these sort of qualities, as does gaining a frozen ATPL, but what puts you head and shoulders above everyone else who has a frozen ATPL is the out of the ordinary, that grabs the interest of the interviewer - such as representing your country at triathlon or dedicating a year or so to saving babies lives in Africa - you get the idea?

So do a degree if time is on your side and you feel you would benefit from doing it, but don't be too concerned if time has passed you by and you are without.............

Good luck to you all

PP

[Obs cop]

I think Pilot Pete has hit many of the key points in both his posts above, and his account of his trials and tribulations.

For what it is worth, I have a very simplified and realistic (I think!) approach. The jobs market is poor at the moment, but don't ever kid yourself that in a few years time we will have more jobs than pilots. Such is the attraction of aviation that even if the demand for pilots rises ten-fold, there will always be more applicants than positions.

You can never have the security of knowing that you can simply complete a course and airlines will offer you a RHS at the end. However, if people show the determination that PP showed, make the right contacts and can demonstrate they have a little bit extra to offer over other candidates, then they will succeed and get the jobs they worked so hard for. It needs time, hard work and plenty of luck, but if you don't try you will never know.

For my sins I never did a degree, and I don't feel it held me back, but at 29 I am running out of time rapidly. But I am getting airbourne.:ok:

[stevethescotspilot]

First of all, thanks to those of you who have expressed your opinions so far.
To be honest I had never really been too keen on getting a degree anyway. A lot of my friends who are older than me have been dropping out of uni like flies because either the work is too hard or their course is not as relevant as it may have seemed at first. I wouldn't want to make the same mistake.
I have good grades from school (six 1s two 2s at standard grade, four As and a B at Higher), but my main motivation was and always has been flying.
However, at the stage I am at just now a simple need to fly can't take the place of hard reality, and PP confirmed what I had suspected for a long time: this is a heavily saturated market.
So instead of taking four years out and getting a degree I've just sent my application away to NATS to become an ATCO. I have always been very interested in this career path anyway, and I'm
sure it would be an excellent job in it's own right.
If I can make it into ATC then I will be more than happy, and in a few years time, if I still feel the burning desire to fly commercially, and assuming the market has picked up, then yes, I may go for the ATPL.
However, a career in aviation is to me a helluva lot better than any other job I can think of, and ATC would be right up my street, so, unless any MAJOR changes come about again within the next few months, it looks like I'll be putting the flying career on hold.
Any further opinions would be welcome.

[Obs cop]

Good luck and hope to hear your voice over the airwaves soon.

Seem to have your head screwed on right which is a damn sight better than a lot of wannabe's. You will love ATC, it's very challenging in its own way.

[George Foreman]

Steve,

Congrats on reaching your decision. I know someone else who has decided to go for the same route, only she is too young to start straight away at Eurocontrol. Have you considered that too, as well as NATS.

With that training behind you, the ATPLs will be a little easier too.

All the best with it all. Drop me a PM if you have any specific questions about Jerez in the future. Otherwise I hope to hear you on the airwaves in the future, if I stick in in class and make myself some of that luck.

[FlyingForFun]

Johnny,

ATPL exams are not a degree. They involve more intense work, but are not as academically demanding. To put it another way, anyone can pass the ATPL exams if they work hard enough, regardless of intelligence - whereas anyone with very high intelligence can pass a degree course without having to work all that hard. It's not possible to compare the two in the way you are doing.

However, there are people out there who agree with you, and some of them have, I think, created degree courses which incorporate flying. I don't know any details, but the names of Cranfield and London Guildhall immediately spring to mind. Hopefully someone out there will know more than me. But going to university and coming out with a degree and a frozen ATPL would be a perfect solution.

Hope that cools the rant down a little!

FFF
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[Evo]

Now, I've heard that doing an ATPL is like doing a degree in a year


I don't see how that can be true. I ended up with a first in my degree (from Birmingham, as it happens) and ignoring holidays (when i didn't study - I reckon about 12 weeks a year, cannot remember) effectively worked sixty hours a week for slightly over two years for that. A fifty hour week would have got me a 2:1. Given the timescale for an integrated ATPL theory course you cannot possibly cover the same amount of material as a three-year degree - there just isn't time.

I'm not trying to say the ATPL writtens are easy - they obviously aren't. Just trying to give a bit of perspective. Of course, you can do s*d all for three years and probably scrape a Pass or third but that's not much use in finding a job either.

(edit: got there just after FFF, as usual :) )

[Obs cop]

Hey guys,

don't forget that passing the ATPL exams is not the be all and end all. On top of the study required for the 14 subjects, there is a great deal of flying to be done for which the preparation and air time can be mentally exhausting.

Personally, I don't follow the analogy of an ATPL being like 3 years of degree crammed into 1 year. It is fundamentally so different in requiring a blend of practical skills, common sense, split second decision making and a certain level of academic ability to make the comparison meaningless.

That does not mean it is easier or harder to complete than a degree. The only thing which may be comparable is the required effort and the intense strain of the exams.

Anyone who thinks ATPL courses are not difficult needs help as they are not seeing all of the picture! IMHO

Obs cop