Liverpool

[Mouser]

Now that Liverpool has been named European Capital of Culture for 2008, a city with several airlinks to European capitals, but with no airlink to its own capital. Surely a virbrant city of this size looking forward to an increase of vistors of up to 50%, and all the spin offs that go with this prize, could sustain any airlink with its own capital.Easyjet shifted 200,000+ on the LPL-LTN route, not the best link for world wide travel. I thumb through different timetables and look at some of the one eyed holes that have an airlink with our capital, or the one up the road which has 20+ services a day and think, christ come on someone have bash at this route, give us desent timetable and we will use it.

[Localiser Green]

Absolutely...

Also isn't a link to the Capital pretty much a prerequisite for EU investment (for an Airport)?

[MarkD]

Aer Arann has two flights to LTN (GWY and WAT) now... perhaps they could be persuaded to try LPL - only ATRs though! Might seem too much shades of Euroceltic though!

[Tom the Tenor]

They wont like that in the City of the Tribes!

[chiglet]

In the "past", BAW, BMA,and VLM have all had a "Liverpool-London" service, and all have "pulled off" Why?:confused:
Possibly 'cos no beggar wants to use it:}
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[brabazon]

Chiglet

Don't forget easyJet's defunct LTN-LPL service, perhaps they could try LGW-LPL???

[Mouser]

LPL-LGW would be a nice option, onward travel etc, and a link with the city. As for previous links, British Midland had fairly good load factors 70%+ and VLM tried in the darks days of 400,000pax per year. Liverpool Airport has come along way since then, pax forecast for this year 3.5million, so give us a good service and it would be used.

[MarkD]

Jetmagic are a Cork based airline and don't get me wrong, I want them to develop the maximum possible ORK routes... but would ORK-LPL-LCY-ORK be viable with an EMB135? ORK-LPL and ORK-LCY already announced... (LCY pending 135 certification)

[Mouser]

Jetmagic looks like a nice little airline and the Liverpool - Cork route is very welcome, me and mrs mouser have already had a look at the fares and a long weekend is in the pipeline.

[dwlpl]

With airlines carrying nearly 900,000 pax to five European cities (Amsterdam, Dublin, Madrid, Paris and Brussels) out of Liverpool in 2002 it makes you wonder as to why there is no Liverpool/London link. :confused:

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Errm.... DWLPL - not sure where you're coming from with that statement. Are you suggesting that people might link through Liverpool to get to either London OR to one of those five european cities.......? If so why should they do that when there are direct flights to and from London to each of those destinations?

Perhaps I am missing something....... I did once before in err '77 I think it was.

:}

[dwlpl]

What I did not make clear is if airlines serving Liverpool can attract that many passengers to those routes listed, then surely they can make a London link work.

The numbers are there because not all passengers are going point-to point. I suggest that a good few are transferring on to onward connections.

All it needs is Ryanair to offer services to Stansted and easyJet to offer Gatwick.

[chiglet]

dwlpl,
Sorry, but with a "virtual" hourly service to LHR, LCY, LGW from a "Large Airport" .....less than 30mins down the road from LPL:p No Contest:ok:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[dwlpl]

..... if that reasoning is used on other routes, there would never be duplication of services at MAN as opposed to LPL, or LPL as opposed to MAN.

[AOG-YYZ]

chiglet:
According to figures MAN has had a single digit percentage decline in pax throughput every month, so far, of this year while your neighbour along the M62 has had a double digit increase for the same period.

However it does seem strange, notwithstanding MAN 45k away, that a city the size of Liverpool does not have an air link with it's own capital. In fact, I thnk Liverpool is the only major European centre, outside a 250k radius, that does not have a link with it's own capital.

[Caslance]

According to figures MAN has had a single digit percentage decline in pax throughput every month, so far, of this year while your neighbour along the M62 has had a double digit increase for the same period.

The problem with percentage declines and increases is that they depend on where you start from and don't tell the whole story.

Let me give you an example....

If you have one apple, and I give you one of my apples then you have experienced a 100% increase in apples.

If I started with 100 apples, then I have had a single digit percentage decline in apples.

But I still have 97 more apples that you, don't I?

Liverpool is expanding rapidly through services by "low-cost" operators....and good luck to the place.

But it's still nowhere near as busy as Manchester, has no longhaul flights whatever and cannot support a service to the capital.

If Ryanair or EasyJet thought they could make money on services to Stansted and/or Luton then they'd be running them already, wouldn't they?

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

If you look at the passenger figures for the last 5 months available from the CAA ( NOV-MARCH) Manchester to London the passenger figures increase by quite a large percentage

Nov 2001 136643
Nov 2002 170569

Dec 2001 120665
Dec 2002 156047

Jan 2002 127818
Jan 2003 153253

Feb 2002 129077
Feb 2003 147938

Mar 2002 146219
Mar 2003 157767


Golf-INDIA BRAVO

[AOG-YYZ]

Caslance wrote:
"The problem with percentage declines and increases depends on where your start"

No argument from this quarter, however a increase, is a increase, is a increase and a decline, is a decline, is a decline, no matter what your starting position is. And although not necessarilly so, an increase for one, usually, heralds the decline for another.

As for Liverpool not having any "long haul" flights, my understanding of that airport is of a "Regional" airport and I believe they have stated that their market strategy is to attract the budget airlines and their customers. I haven't heard of them altering this strategy to targettng Manchester airports "long haul" customers. I think they have found their niche and are filling it very succesfully, dont you?

As for a London connection, it does seem strange that a airport with such a large customer base and catchment area, notwithstanding MAN, cannot sustain a link with the capital.

[dwlpl]

As for a London connection, it does seem strange that a airport with such a large customer base and catchment area, notwithstanding MAN, cannot sustain a link with the capital.

Exactly my point in my earlier posts.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Hmm... well fact is you can't really practically drive or get a train to those european destinations....... History shows that a Liverpool London service doesn't seem to work that well.

Perhaps Keenair will put a Tiger on the service???

:bored:

[dwlpl]

..... tried the Liverpool/London train service lately.

If you are lucky to get on it you may get a seat to sit on.

[Mouser]

We know about LPL in the past not being able to the sustain a link with London, living in the shadow of MAN ,all that said, now it has and will have a higher profile and as said before given a descent product it will be used, just to waffle on for a moment, LPL goes head to head with MAN on 11 routes LPL comes out on top in 8 of these , so we could given a chance make a go of it.

[chiglet]

I'm now on leave:ok:
But the last "Figures" that I saw was that Manch was2.3% up on 2001:) as to 2002, it's about 7%.
Tht's without the "Football":rolleyes:
[These are "Traffic" not Pax figures] any corrections gratefully accepted
Good Luck to Speke, but having worked there, I [in all honesty] do not hold out much hope for a "London" service
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[dwlpl]

Chiglet, here are the MAN figures for your perusal. One note first though. Figures around March/April can be be misleading due to the fact that the busy Easter period moves from year to year.



Comparing 2002 Annual Figures to 2001 Annual Figures
Passengers (terminal) -2.5%
Passengers (incl transit) -2.7%


Comparing March 2003 to March 2002
Passengers (terminal) -8%
Passengers (incl transit) -8.3%


Passengers (terminal)
Annual 2001 19,111,432
Annual 2002 18,640,127
MAT April 2002 to March 2003 18,612,320


Passengers (incl transit)
Annual 2001 19,556,779
Annual 2002 19,037,880
MAT April 2002 to March 2003 18,993,217

BTW, don't suppose your boosting LPL's figures whilst on leave by any chance;)

[bagpuss lives]

I wonder how the news that RYR were commencing EGNH - EGSS was received at Liverpool?

Considering that RYR have said a few times in the past that EGGP was to be their main "hub" in the North West I have to say I was rather surprised at the announcement, being a big supporter of Liverpool JL's ongoing growth myself.

I cannot understand why the custom base appears not to be present for a EGGP - London service. Whilst Euroceltic weren't the most reliable of operators (somewhat of an understatement I believe?) I believe that their loadings for said route were decent enough?

[Tom the Tenor]

Mouser, a big welcome to Cork if you decide to come over. Okay, it might be raining for a bit when you are here but Cork people are generally good hearted and the Liverpool football team are very well got in Cork.

Mark D, it occured to me too that Jetmagic ORK-LPL and then LPL-LCY-LPL and back to Cork would work quite nicely. However, I think Jetmagic would have to change their schedule a bit to get it going. Nice idea, though. :)

[sisyphus1965]

dwpl
A very selective use of figures. Jan, Feb and April 2003 showed an increase in passengers over 2002. March was down because Easter was in March 2002 and April 2003. Your rolling annual figure was therefore chosen to show MAN in the worst light.

On a more mature note, instead of "mine's bigger than your's", the population of the Northwest is big enough to support two if not three successful airports. The success of MAN and LPL (and maybe BLK, in the future) is good for the whole of the whole of the Northwest: just as the Commonwealth Games were and the European City of Culture will be.

Incidentally, as a Mancunian, I too cannot understand why LPL cannot support a London service.:E

[dwlpl]

sisyphus1965

I did point out that it is difficult to judge March/April stats because Easter 'moves' every year. I have the figures for the first four months of this year and I will leave up to you to judge whether they are as expected or not. Note though the April 2003 figure is provisional.

Monthly Figures
January 02 1045380
January 03 1094018

February 02 1077321
February 03 1105844

March 02 1317773
March 03 1209997

April 02 1263171
April 03 1300352


Easter - March/April Combined
2002 2580944
2003 2510349


MAT
to April 2002 18886182
to April 2003 18651225

[Hooligan Bill]

niteflite01

I do not think it is a case of the customer base not being there, the problem is actually running a economically viable service. Reading between the lines the reason easyjet dropped the Luton service was they could actually make more money by utilising the aircraft on other routes. The Euroceltic service suffered from poor publicity and as you have pointed out, was not exactly the most reliable service.

MAN has the advantage that BA and BMI are feeding passengers into LHR and LGW for onward connections on their own and alliance networks, rather than just being a 'London' service, that LPL has had. easyjet would not get that many people transitting through Luton onto their network as most of the routes are already duplicated from Liverpool anyway, and if you are getting a connection at LHR or LGW, the transfer time is such that you may as well drive, get the train/coach in the first place.

[dwlpl]

Hooligan Bill,

You have listed the reasons as to why various services have failed and the arguments put are nearer the real reasons why than anyone has got to before on this forum.

Speaking personally I would have like the easy connection to Luton to be still in place as I would have used it to fly (because of no LPL/GLA flight) to Scotland in late July. Looks like I will have to go vis BFS a stay the night instead.

[chiglet]

HB,
Wot about VLM? Manch to LondonCity, average 60%. Peaks, it's 100%. No interline, just a Chuffin' good product :hmm: .
Same Airline, "similar route"....but substitute the 'Pool for Manch. Was pulled off PDQ:confused: Why?
Also BMA did not have a "Feeder" service at the time the DC9s were pulled.
EZY to EGKK, why not?
Being a BOF, Iwas working at EGGP on the inaugural BMA "Service"...1st trip [about]7 pax Memory is rather hazy.
2nd trip 50% load :ok: The Mayor, entourage, and "Press":uhoh:.It went downhill from there
The "Answer" If I knew, I'd start my own airline on that route
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[dwlpl]

From memory BMA and EZY both used the same reason for stopping LPL/London services. The reason given was that aircraft could be used to greater effect (ie make more money) flying elsewhere.

Back to the thread. I think LPL would like easyJet to Gatwick or Ryanair to Stansted. Maybe they will, eventually get both!

[Rockwell]

I see that VLM are to increase their MAN-LCY (London City) service from the present 5 flights per
day to 7, and this will be further increased to 9 next May. So they must be doing something right.

And to think they couldn't make a success of a LPL - LCY.

[Hooligan Bill]

Chiglet,

The "Answer" If I knew, I'd start my own airline on that route

If you do discover it, let us know and I'll join you, because I am sure there is money to be made.

[Danny_R]

Bit of a rumour..... LPL may be in talks with a new airline to operate a Liverpool London service, I guess we will find out soon..... fingers crossed.

[AOG-YYZ]

Danny_R wrote: "LPL may be in talks"

Or then again, may not. EZY may move their LPL operation to MAN, or they may not. LPL may get a London service, or they may not.

As I see it, the only way UK provincial airports will get a fair shake is if the UK government adopts, either a 'Use-it-or-lose-it' policy for domestic routes, or they make provincial connections a priority as opposed to profiteering by airlines, at the expense of the British provincial travelling public.

But then Blair's is the government that ignored the majority of it's electorate by taking his country into an American led war. The same government that gave the British Royal Navy aircraft carrier contract to France. So fat chance they will consider the travelling public in the British provinces. But then again, I may be wrong. :D

[LGS6753]

Do you still get the wheels nicked if you park overnight at LPL?

[Danny_R]

I don't believe so, more chance of it at Manchester now, crime rate over there is double what it is in Merseyside, Liverpool seems to be getting better overall.