Flight training stupidity

[ncusack]

Hi all;
I have just decided that I have to indefinitely postpone taking flight training towards getting a commercial license due to the financial implications. I would like to say though (purely out of twisted bitterness) that I have never seen any job in my life that you have to buy yourself into like the aviation industry right now.

In reality just to get the right to apply along with 100's of others for your first job in the RHS will cost about 70K Sterling ........... and that is just to start. You have no guarantee of a job and are up against 100's of other cash starved graduates. Then the likes of Ryanair (and dare I suggest most other big airlines in the future) have the audacity to make you take your own type rating at a further cost 18K. It really is the most ridiculous scenario I have ever seen.

What other profession would work like this? It seems to me the it has now become a rich kids profession where it is the almighty dollar that counts and not your ability to fly aircraft and take responsibility for the 100's of people sitting behind you. It is enough to make you sick.

I am not taking a shot at anyone already in the industry as I know that most of you got in through hard work and getting chosen on cadetships. You are the real pilots. I shudder to think what the next generation will bring where is is based on money and not any form of apptitude or skill.

One totally pissed off ncusack

[FlyingForFun]

I'm sorry to hear that, ncusack.

To answer your question about "What other profession would work like this?", the answer is any profession where there are more professionals than there are posts available. I would guess that Formula 1 would be the ultimate example. But even in more mundane professions, it's exactly the same - lots of IT contractors who I know spend many thousands of pounds a year staying up to date with the latest technology in the hope of getting a job working on a system less than 20 years old, for example.

I resent the implication that, because I have worked hard in a different industry to earn enough to pay for my own training, I don't have the "ability to fly aircraft and take responsibility for the 100's of people sitting behind [me]". Money is one ingredient necessary to become a commercial pilot, and there are several others. If I don't have the ability to be a good pilot, I will not pass my flight tests, regardless of how much money I have. If I don't have the ability to be a great pilot, I will not get through an airline sim-ride, regardless of the fact that I've already pumped lots of money into my license. The same applies in Formula 1 - the (very few) drivers who are only there because of their money will certainly never drive for the top teams, because it is not the money but the skill which the tops teams (and the top airlines) are looking for - but you need money to have a chance at gaining those skills.

No one should enter this industry unless they have planned on spending lots of money, and they know where that money is going to come from. I hope that, given time, you come up with a plan for funding your dream.

FFF
-----------

[ncusack]

Flying for fun:

I think that nothing more than alot of skill gets you up through the ranks in Formula 1. Maybe I am wrong but I believe most of the drivers out there are like all other professional sports people....they are lucky/good enough to get spotted. It is a totally different scenario. If I was the richest man alive.....I still couldn't become Michael Schumacher. I just haven't the skill.

As for the IT industry............I am afraid I also disagree. I am an IT professional and my company keep me current. If I wanted to do contract work and make huge amounts of money (well back in the old days at least) then I would need to keep myself current and spend that money. In turn for this expenditure I would receive a very handsome renumeration....much larger than working in a fulltime position. Thus you get back what you put in directly. This is not the case in aviation.


As I said, I am not suggesting anything about any pilot...I have the greatest respect.....I am merely stating my personal feelings on the way the industry is going with regards to recruitment and FTO's.

NCusack

[Training Risky]

I know how you feel Ncusack and I sympathise with you.

It does look like its a rich boys playground out there if you have Daddies' millions to fall back on.

I considered leaving the RAF after I was grounded: a case I am still fiercely fighting.

What stopped me leaving was the apparent inability of potential airline sponsors to realise my employability. Every half- or full-sponsorship I applied for, they turned me down at the intial screening. Even though I have >500 hrs on single and twin turbine helicopters!

I can't afford to be unemployed and I don't want to re-mortgage my house, but I don't have 600 quid at the moment, let alone 60 grand!:{

But my solution is to work for approx 10 years in a ground job, save like crazy, then see what the market is like..... hopefully this 'pilot shortage' that people allude to will be in full swing!:cool:


So hang in there, it will happen in the end.

[ncusack]

Training Risky........you are hopefully right. Let's see what happens.

Ciao
Ncusack

[divorcingjack]

Hey niall,

I'm really sorry to hear you are putting everything on hold - that means one less irish person to drink with in NZ .. oh NOOO !!! Seriously though, I hope everything sorts itself out and you get back on the treadmill OK, best of luck.

Olwen aka divorcingjack

[witchdoctor]

Hmmmm, lives in Switzerland and moans about life being unfair. Paying much tax out there fella?

Try doing a real job (sleeves rolled up and hard graft) instead of poncing about with computers. Try doing a job which pays significantly less than £20K (that's a year!). Try living somewhere that is deeply unpleasant (and pays tax).

Then come and say to my face that I'm some over-priveleged rich kid spending daddy's money on my latest fad. I gave up a thoroughly cr@p existence to pursue something I want for many reasons, not the least of which is to provide a decent living for myself and my family. I borrowed every last penny to pay for my training, worked hard all the way through, never gave up and continue to make myself as employable as I can.

I resent your inference that I don't have the ability to do the job and that I somehow bought myself a place in the queue. Even if you had the money to buy your way in, only a complete t***er would hire a d*ck like you.:mad:

[Desk-pilot]

I have some sympathy for your view and am a fellow IT person who has decided to commit to pilot training despite the financial implications.

Yes it pisses me off that there are a lot of rich kids out there whose parents are prepared to pay for their pilot training when the rest of us mere mortals have to put our lives on the line for it. I have however come to the conclusion that spending £100 000 (including loss of earnings) to become an airline pilot is about the same amount I'd have to invest in a small business such as a shop and far less than I'd have to invest to open a decent B&B (which are other options I have considered in moments of weakness when the going seemed tough).

I have a wife, a large mortgage and can't afford to screw up but presuming I get the job I want for the next 20 years it will have cost me £5000 per career year to be happy at work which is trivial.

Desk-pilot

[onehunga]

IMHO it basically comes down to how much you really want it, end of story.

Ultimately, I view the hurdles in getting into commerical aviation as part of lifes many and varied challenges. I for one am going to make it but I sense that I now have 1 less potential competitor out there which is brill news!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I sympathise with all views expressed thus far.

My only point is that you *can* do all the training for circa £40,000 if you really try.

Anyone who has owned a house for the last 2 years should be able to get hold of that amount at around 4% interest.

In that sense funding your training has never been cheaper or easier.

If you haven't owned a property then perhaps your parents may be able to help you out with a quick call to the mortgage company. It sure beats the old career development loan + juggling interest free credit cards + unsecured loans at 9% + overdrafts...

Deciding to postpone entering full time training is a reasonable and proactive thing to do.

WWW

[BlueGreen]

ncusack,

A year and a half ago from now I was a bored IT worker sitting in a bank. I was deep into my overdraft at the end of every month and still paying off student debts - I was getting thoroughly pis*ed off with life wishing I could change my mind numbing career into something I desperately wanted to do.

Rather than look at banks and family for the money (coz they wouldn't have given me any) I looked at what I had. I had IT skills, not great ones because I was so unenthusiastic, but some. I left the company I worked for having no other job to go to. I sat in the house for two months solidly honing my IT skills (credit card debt growing) in order to land a well paid contract. I had to fight to stay awake every day as I found it all so incredibly boring...

I got a contract after applying for 80 or so... Now my contract is coming to an end I have just enough cash to complete a modular with little or no borrowing required.

Have a look at what skills you have a see if you can ramp them up into something more saleable - not easy I know, but worth a shot.

Good luck,

BG

[mad_jock]

Go for it.

I have been out of the IT contracting game for coming up for 2 years.

And it seems like I left at the right time as well, Someone needs to invent another Y2K bonanza.

Been instructing for a year and 2 months best decision I have ever made.

No more bloody users trying to re-invent the wheel using Access in an enterprise enviroment.
Stuck in server rooms which your mate has just dropped his arse as he walked out the door.

The wage cut down to 15% of what I was earning was a bit of a shock to the system though. But the job more than makes up for it.

If it helps I managed the whole lot for 35K including FI rating finished April 2002.

And managed to stay working while doing the ATPL ground exams, ppl and hour build. You need time off though for CPL/IR.

MJ

[Obs cop]

You wanna be a successful racing driver, you need money and skill. Virtualy every top racing driver has been in the same pennyless state as pilots in training.

They need to stump up their own cash through the lower echelons of the sports, paying tens of thousands in the hope that they will impress enough to get one of the 22-24 jobs in formula 1. Not good odds really. Most will spend their years living by annual contracts, on poor money, unnoticed by the cameras and the paying public.

The point is that with both flying and driving you need 3 vital atributes. Money, skill and desire. Granted if you have enough money, you can buy your way through the vast majority, but if you have skill and determination you can succeed. It has taken me 10 years to build £32,000 to pursue my dream. I have shown the determination to get to a point where I can start, and will have to remain determined as I have to work throughout the modular training route.

Virtually anything is possible given the willpower, all that money means is you can start sooner, and make more mistakes before your funding runs out. If you really want to fly, you just need patience and hard work to build the resources. I would suggest the vast majority out there have had to work hard and provide their own cash/security to pursue their ambitions. It doesn't make them any better or worse a pilot than someone who had daddy's support, but it may make them a more desireable candidate to the airlines. IMHO.

Chin up peeps, keep chasing that dream.

Obs cop

[ncusack]

Thanks for all the good points made above and I agree with most. I hope it works out for everyone but for me it still doesn't make financial sense. Maybe that is the difference between me and people that really want it. If that makes one more space for someone else.....then go for it!

As for the "witchdoctor" ......... My old son, I must respond just because you are such a wonderful guy. Let me talk a quick walk through your very helpful and insightful reply:


QUOTE 1:
"Hmmmm, lives in Switzerland and moans about life being unfair. Paying much tax out there fella?"

If you had half a brain you would know that we DO pay tax in Switzerland like every other individual. In fact quite a percentage more. Do your research before being so quick off the mark. You do know where Switzerland is right?

QUOTE 2:
"Try doing a real job (sleeves rolled up and hard graft) instead of poncing about with computers. Try doing a job which pays significantly less than £20K (that's a year!). Try living somewhere that is deeply unpleasant (and pays tax)."

Hmmmmmm......good idea......Must hand in my notice tomorrow and do that. 55 Pounds a week to dig holes in the lashing rain and be a real man with you.....Sounds great!!!
For your info, the reason I am so uncertain about splashing out so much now is that I paid for all my education and worked hard to get an IT masters just so that I wouldn't have to go shoveling sh*t with you. I have just cleared those debts with poncy computer work and am glad to be out of debt finally. I will take a long time reflecting before I go back into such debt again

QUOTE 3:
"Then come and say to my face that I'm some over-priveleged rich kid spending daddy's money on my latest fad. I gave up a thoroughly cr@p existence to pursue something I want for many reasons, not the least of which is to provide a decent living for myself and my family. I borrowed every last penny to pay for my training, worked hard all the way through, never gave up and continue to make myself as employable as I can."

Who's a good likkle boy then!! Who are you flying for?

QUOTE 4:

"I resent your inference that I don't have the ability to do the job and that I somehow bought myself a place in the queue. Even if you had the money to buy your way in, only a complete t***er would hire a d*ck like you.Hmmmm, lives in Switzerland and moans about life being unfair. Paying much tax out there fella?"

The Switzerland thing again? It's getting tedious but just for your reords, I would like to assure you that I bought and paid for my own ticket to move here and got off my arse to get a work permit. Don't be jealous if it worked for me. We need hole diggers here in Switzerland aswell if you are stuck for a while. Perhaps I could help you out?

Finally......Let me know which MCC course you did? It obviously taught you how to speak people ........Can't you just hear F/O WitchDoctor coming on the PA 5 minutes into the flight...

YO listen up...this is the first officer here.....Would the tosser with the crying baby shut the fu** up or I will come down there and tear your head off.......I have worked with my hands in a previous job after all and I am not one of these tosser computer guys....I am a real man so it will be no problem to me!!

As I said I hope my withdrawal from the race for the timebeing gives some decent wannabe a helping hand. I think we can say there are two places now open as I don't feel WitchDoctor will be posing much opposition at the interview!!

Anyway enough.....I could go through this imbecile all evening.

Good luck to you all;
NCusack


PS Divorcingjack check your PMs.:D

[RVR800]

ncusak

I would endorse your comments

I also work in IT and I too am kept current

The problem is simply too many pilots chasing too few jobs

The low cost sector will make pilots work harder for less. The
whole thing has changed since the days of the 'BA 'transatlantic
barons

The sad thing is that the training has become more difficult, more time consuming, and more expensive, whilst the demand for UK pilots has been reduced as JAR means that pilots from the failing airlines of Europe can now take UK jobs.

I reckon only about half of fATPLS get out of GA anyway the
rest either run out of time or money....

There are over 14,000 fATPLs or above in the UK - too many..

[36533]

I would agree with those who say it is difficult and seems to be getting more expensive, but tell me the logic behind those comments about guys and girls getting their folks to help them pay for it.

Are you suggesting that they go off to a bank and get themselves in debt when they can get a interest free loan from the folks. Sure lots of them are probably having mummy and dadday apy for it without them needing to pay them back. Is that their fault? I think not.

Or perhaps you are suggesting that this is a job only open to those who have to work to save to do the tarining.

I myself have just managed to save up the 50k that I am hoping it will cost me, but not for one minute do I think that those who may have a more secure financial backing than me deserve to fly any more or less than me.

It's down to each individual's abilities as a pilot and a team player etc, and nothing more.

Hope I haven't put too many backs up with this, and it is all just MHO.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

On a very basic note, when people say life works out, where does that fall into place when you have all these 'daddy's boys' with millions to squander on useless things who have never worked hard in their lives, and then us, squandering for our money to get through training...

Doesn't really add up does it... :confused:

[Training Risky]

6 year old Tarquin gets what he wants, always. He gets a new shiny red bicycle when he loses his old one...

When he is 10-16 yrs old, he gets the latest Playstation 2, and the next model produced by Microsoft, etc....

When he's 17, he says "Dad, can I have an Audi TT? Pleeease"?...

When he's 18, he gets his university tuition, food and beer chits all paid for. He doesn't have to work part-time, he doesn't have to scrimp and save, he doesn't have to prostitute himself to HSBC and promise to surrender his first-born to the branch-manager....

When he's 20, he may or may not decide to drop out. If he does, by chance he watches Airport on BBC1 and sees a life as an airline pilot as an exciting way to travel the world and meet hosties....

"Daaad, there's this really cool flying school in the UK/Spain/Switzerland (etc) where I can learn about flying and the like.... I fancy giving it a go, can I have 70, 80, no... better make it 90 grand. After all, I will need beer chits, good food, extrs hours, etc."

"Sure son"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To all those detractors out there, this is the kind of thing I was referring to.
This particular situation is hypothetical, and I have known people who fit the bill perfectly except for one minor difference: they weren't called 'Tarquin'
And it makes me sick.

[FlyingForFun]

TR,

You say you have known "Tarquins". How many of these "Tarquins" have an airline job?

As I said much earlier in the post, there are many ingredients for getting that job. Money is one of them. But it's not the only one. No amount of money will get you an IR, or get you through your ATPL exams, or get you that sim-ride, or that contact who gets you your first interview.

FFF
--------------

[Muggs]

am I the only wannabe who isn't in IT.

If I ever make it as a pilot I am worried that I will be sat next to IT bores 10 hours at a time.

also this isn't an IT website ... its PPRUNE (sorry to point out the obvious) so if you wanna talk IT :mad: off

[kabz]

Ha ha ha Muggs ... I am an IT drone too ... Just about to take 4 months leave of absence from my job and work for my FAA commercial and instructor ratings.

Don't worry though ... I won't talk about IT in the plane.

[Training Risky]

You are correct FFF, cash is only one factor in getting a flying job, there is aptitude, mental capacity, confidence, medical fitness and load of others.

The point I am trying to make (badly maybe) is this:

You can take 2 equally educated, skilled, well-rounded guys and start them on the wannabe trail....

They may be just as confident and able as each other, but if one happens to be 'Tarquin', he will have access to the best integrated ATPL training on the planet, an almost unlimited pot of hours in which to get it right for the IR, and (probably most importantly) his own type rating..... and the other guy, well, he can't afford his own type rating yet, but he's a damn good AFI at XXXXXXX flying club.

Now you send our 2 wannabes into the same interview, and who is the one that stands the best chance by miles of being hired? (Assuming they perform similarly on the day).

That's why it doesn't seem right that some guys can literally buy themselves into this profession (if they happen to have the aptitude, etc), while others like me and Ncusack have to bide our time and work for the privelige.


And yes, I have met many 'Tarquins' in the 8 years I have been flying, some were rich and well-balanced people.....
..... and some were inbred gits who had nothing going for them but their aptitude and their money. (And I KNOW some of them are with airlines right now.)

[ncusack]

TrainRisky

Thanks dude........You got it in one with the above. This is the original point I was trying to make in the original post. I made it badly but that's because as I said I am bitter about having to drop the "dream". That's all!!!

Later
Ncusack:{

[Luke SkyToddler]

Makes me laugh because we've got the exact opposite problem here in New Zealand - you can be a complete and total no-hope loser on the dole, wake up one morning and say 'oohh that flying looks like a bit of a laugh', go down your local polytechnic and get a taxpayer funded loan for the whole thing :ok:

And as a consequence, every circuit pattern in the country is now chock full of hopelessly untalented daydreamers and benefit scrounging muppets all happily drilling holes in the sky, on their way to their airline promised land that they read about in the flashy brochure. Half of them never even pass their licences and even the ones that do, 99% of them will never work as pilots because every man and his dog has got a CPL, there are so many bloody desperate young hot shots out there working for free now that it seems you can't even get into a battered old turboprop night freighter without 6 PhD's and a few years of space shuttle command time.

Flying was much better when it was elitist :rolleyes:

[Bealzebub]

One of the things about being at the top of the food chain in this business is that you often can help your kids financially. This assumes you havent fallen victim to all the things that can affect anybody in any walk of life, such as illness or divorce.

If one of my kids wants to enter aviation as a career then I will help them absolutely. They will have to jump through many of the same hoops as anybody else. Medicals, studies, examinations, more studies, more examinations, more medicals, applications, interviews, rejection letters, more of the same, etc etc. On the other hand they have the benefit of my financial situation (fingers crossed), inside knowledge, experience and advice. If I can give them any advantage, I most certainly will ! If they choose another career I will still do all I can for them.

commercial aviation is an expensive pursuit for most people. Some can afford to enter it. Some borrow there way in. Some obtain scholorships. Some save the money to enter. This is not dissimilar from private education or private healthcare. If your rich...great ! If your not then you have one more obstacle to overcome.

It may not be fair but it is life. You will come across examples of it everywhere you go and all through life. Far better to work around the obstacle than keep moaning about it. Plenty of people have achieved there goal in this industry despite the challenges (fair or not). Competition in this industry is fierce and if you don't like the hand you have been dealt either seek to improve your lot or give up. If you give up nobody will care, it just removes one more person from a very crowded market.

In summary your "ability to fly" is just one of the many abilities and requirements you need to stand a chance of obtaining a career in aviation. Even armed with all these attributes it still needs a liberal sprinkling of good luck to suceed by however you define success.

If it all proves unfair or too difficult don't worry, there are plenty of other careers out there and many of them pay far better wages.

[stillalbatross]

When you say you wanna RHS job I take it you don't wanna batter round the sky in a sh*tbox 206 in some crap hole barely eeking out a living while getting some experience. Seems there are too many people chasing airline work off a fresh CPL who have forgotten why they started in the first place. Because they love flying, I hope. Pull finger, get out there and get your hands dirty. There is flying about, it may not be what you aspire to and you may have to kiss a** and sell your soul down the river for a pittance but it is a start.

[FlyingForFun]

Bealzebub, good post. I was going to comment on it in more detail, but couldn't think of anything to add.

FFF
------------

[Flypuppy]

Stillalbatross,
Many of us would give part of our reproductive sytem to fly a battered old 206/404 ropey old Baron flying newspapers or whatever dodgy cargo could be loaded. Unfortunately the JAR world seems to be *aimed* at producing low houred future jet F/O's.

Most people seem to be finishing training with 200-400 hours, unfotunately it is no longer allowed under JAR rules to do any single pilot ops until you have 700 hours. So people go and get an instructors rating to build up hours, which leads to an over supply of instructors, which leads to people offering to work for free etc etc.

Got to admit, it is becoming difficult remaining enthusiastic about this game. The costs of getting the licences and permanatly variable entry requirements (which cost even more money), really are just getting too much. Makes me wonder if it is just time to chalk it all up to experience, and stick with the day job. That at least pays the mortgage and I dont have to pay anyone to train me to work my computer.

[Blinkz]

I have to say I've read this thread with mixed feelings as I'm sure you would all classify me into the type of person that you are complaining about. I'd like to think I'm not like that.


My Parents, while not what I would call rich are well off. During my childhood my Dad worked overseas for much of it, I have lived in South Africa, Kenya and at the moment the US. Since the age of 12 I have lived away from home either at boarding school or at university.

I have loved flying as long as I can remember. I'm pretty sure it came when my dad took my to farnborough airshow when I was 8. While at boarding school I flew home every holiday (I've probably had about 50-60 long haul flights since going to boarding school) This just added to my want to become a pilot. In 1998 the RAF turned me down on eyesight requirements. I was absolutly devastated. I tried to put it behind me as best I could and got one with school, getting 9 GCSEs and 3 A levels. but the love flying never went away. I went onto uni to do a computer science degree, which is where I am now. My dad indeed paid for this and I haven't had to work my way. Once at uni I joined the uni gliding club and am now president of it, a fact which I'm very proud of.

Only last year did my friend on my gliding airfield tell me that the CAA had less stringent rules then the RAF. Obviously I did not and so since then I have been finding out all the information I could about commercial flying and to my joy it looked like it was becoming more and more possible for my dream to actaully come true.

My dad has indeed offered to lend me the money (please note, LEND me the money) for flight training. At the moment I am waiting to go down to gatwick to have a colourvision test to see if I can fly here. If not I plan to go to either the US or Australia to become a pilot there.

Through most of my uni career I have struggled with the work. I have never really enjoyed my course and found the subject matter difficult to say the least. I am in my 3rd year now and am unsure weather I am going to pass or not. If indeed I drop out then I'm still going to do whatever it takes to become a pilot. It has been my dream all my life and I plan to do anything it takes to make it come true.

I guess the reason for this post is just to point out that while I'm sure there are some people like you say, I doubt that there are many like you describe, and that alot of us love flying just as much as you and are just fortunate to have parents that understand the love we have and are prepaired to help us achieve it.

[mad_jock]

I would say if you have started the course you had better finish it.
And get some sort of grade

It dosn't look good if you don't complete.

MJ

[Blinkz]

not really the point of my post.

I'm not aiming to drop out. I can pass this year with an non-honours degree which isn't awful. better then nothing certainly.

but i'll just have to wait and see.

[Ray Ban]

Blinkz,

If I were you I would work as hard as possible and get the highest grade I could. Certainly don't settle for a non-honours degree, which if my memory serves me correctly is lower than a 3rd class!

Good luck!

[Luke SkyToddler]

I say go for it blinkz, and don't take any crap from the people that want to call you names, it's a bloody hard road to the top no matter if you're financial or not. I've seen plenty of both rich kids and poor kids alike, get bitter and twisted and fall by the wayside on the road to that airline seat, in fact I suspect there's one or two of them posting on this very thread even :rolleyes:

I'm with Bealzebub on this one ... any kid of mine that wants to take up flying, is going to get the full backing of dad's big fat airline captain's wallet, and no apologies :ok:

Depending on how old you are, there are two ways to look at the university thing ... if you're already on the north side of 26-27 then it might be worth directly pursuing the flying career ... but if you're only a young school-leaving type of whippersnapper then it's definitely worth finishing the degree, and maintaining your sanity by doing your PPL and some hours building at your local aero club during your final university year.

Now then, I don't suppose your dad wants to fund some random bloke from the internet into buying a B737 rating by any chance? :p

[Blinkz]

I am working as hard as possible, but I still don't know if I'm going to pass this year. I'll just have to wait and see.

oh and i'm 22. so not past the hurdle yet.

[rloukota]

Blinxz (and all wannabes) you must go for it.
I too couldn't pass RAF med - short sighted. Now got Dental and Medical degrees and am a consultant surgeon.
I finally realised my dream learnt to fly finally last year when young friend and colleague died unexpectedly rapidly followed by two friends.
Therefore heed below:
1)Life is short
2)Life is NOT fair
3)Having a good, safe, well paid (relatively) job, house, cars etc.is v. nice but does not equate to happiness.
4)Good luck:ok:

[foghorn]

I'm commenting on this thread a little too late, but, as ever, RVR is bang on the mark.

There are of the order of 6,000 airline jobs* in the UK and 14,000 medically fit UK-based holders of a CPL or higher**.

That means there are 8,000 people qualified for airline jobs, who are not currently employed in the UK in an airline job. These people are:

- flying overseas
- instructing/meatbombing/taxi/towing gliders/bizjets/other GA
- not flying professionally

Now some of these GA flyers will not be interested in an airline job (often older GA pros), some pilots flying overseas will have no current plans to return to the UK, and some people who are not flying professionally will have almost given up on their dreams but will be keeping a valid medical to fly privately (I slip inexorably closer to this category with time).

However even stripping out these people from the magic 8,000 number, that still leaves a hell of a lot of people chasing jobs.

And that is before any influx of European-based JAA licence holders are taken into account (which anecdotally seems to be often more a net import of pilots).

On top of that, between 100 and 400 new CPL/IRs are issued in the UK every year ***.

Anyone entering training at this point in time has to be aware of the scale of these numbers. Had I appreciated the scale of these numbers a few years ago, I'd have thought a lot harder about getting a professional licence (I'd have probably got a PPL/SEIR and flown privately). However I committed to professional training right in the middle of the hiring boom, prospects seemed different then.

The problem is, despite the high cost of entry to the market, we are slipping toward the situation that has dogged Australia and New Zealand: way too many people with the motivation and access to the necessary funds for professional pilot training, compared to the number of professional pilots required.

It's a tough decision. Best of luck whatever decision you take.

cheers!
foggy.


* Estimate I've seen made before, based on doubling BA's pilot headcount.

** CAA's own figures of professional fixed wing licence holders who hold valid class one medicals last renewed at a UK-based AME - these are the closest data to the numbers of UK-based commercial pilots that are in the public domain.

*** CAA's own figures for IR issue to professional fixed wing licence holders.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well the 'market' these days truly is pan-European post JAR.

I was flying recently with a Skipper who within the last 4 years had worked for an Italian charter airlines, then Sabena, then a UK low cost airline and was now off to their new Paris base with an eye on a future move to a possible base back in Italy.

A decade ago he would have had to apply for work permits in each country. He would have had to apply to each countries CAA for a national license. Each CAA would have stipulated different hoops for him to jump through each time.

Its all change now of course.

This means that whereas it was once possible to make an educated guess at the UK pilot market - nowadays it is almost impossible to do so.

Rumours are gathering pace about BA restarting DEP recruitment by the year end and it seems unlikely that there will be any more airline failures.

For sure a period of consolodation lies ahead - Eddington and most analysts have been forecasting only 5 big airline in Europe for blimmin ages now. Such consolodation should result in efficiency savings which normally means reduced headcounts. The continental economy remains moribund and there is a growing threat from the loony Green and NIMBY lobby who are hell bent on imposing taxes on aviation.

On the flip side - the EU aviation market is underdeveloped by US standards. If Europe grows to only two thirds the size of the US airline business it will have to nearly double in the next decade.

Good luck,

WWW