Landing...

[spudskier]

Ok.. so I can grease a c152, even a Bavarian Grob G115c! (fully composite tricycle fixed-gear aerobatic low wing with characteristics of a 172. 2 place) but I CAN'T land a c172 worth crap!!!

I have dozens of hours in a 172 (I have 115 total hours rght now and am working on my commercial/instrument ratings) and my pattern work is fantastic, everything is excellent until short final. It's never the same problem twice.... flare too early, too late, not enough, too much. My speed is always good, coordinated, shooting straight down the runway, I just can't seem to get the flare right in the 172!!!

[flycat]

Hi,
I'm not sure what the problem might be on your landings in the C172, it is quite the same as the c152, just a little bigger. Just a few pointers:
Make sure your seat is adjusted so that you can see above the airplane's nose.
On final, make sure that you have the correct airspeed (1.3 Vso tends to work) or you can use 5kts extra.
As you approach final, and your landing target moves under the airplane's nose, don't pitch the nose down, instead start using your peripheral view to get the feeling for height, and about 100 ft from the runway start bringing the power to idle.
To start the flare, look at the end of the runway, you'll see a visual effect that the end of the runway is sloping up, just follow it as you flare.
And the last thing that used to work for some of my students, just try to fly the airplane off the runway in ground effect, hold the pitch and use some throttle, you will end up making the best landing ever.
Good luck and talk to your instructor

[FlyingForFun]

I agree with all of flycat's advice, especially the bit about talking to your instructor.

Also, have a read of the Private Flying forum (where this thread will no doubt get moved to shortly anyway) because this subject (in general, if not specific to C172) gets discussed regularly. In particular, have a look for posts by Chuck Ellsworth (sp?), who I think posts as Cat Driver (or something like that... I'll come back and edit this post if I find his name and discover I've got it very wrong!)

Personally, I would guess that you're not focusing your vision correctly during the round-out and subsequent flare. Initially, your attention should be focussed on your "aiming point", usually the numbers. As you begin to round out, shift your vision forward, to a point a few hundred metres in front of you (the exact distance depends on your speed, but for most purposes, focusing on the end of the runway is a pretty good approximation). This works for any type, and for some very complex mathematical reasons that I never understood, it gives your brain the image it needs to be able to judge your height correctly, and adjust your attitude continually as necessary.

Another suggestion would be to get a tail-dragger checkout. This is absolutely guaranteed to improve your landings, since you can not land a tail-dragger safely if your technique is incorrect. A night qualification (if you haven't got one already) will have a similar effect, although it's not quite so good.

Good luck!

FFF
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[spudskier]

thnx for the help... it's relevent to the forum since I'm working on my commercial/inst ratings...


I have talked to my instructor, he's not sure what to do either, he's also given me the advice to look down the rwy as my aiming point goes beneath me. He thinks I just need more time to just work on landings.

I've done quite a bit of night flying, I actually do better at night. For some unknown reason I do well in all scenarios except a normal one with little wind, good light, and a regular plane.

the seat is a problem as dozens of students use the planes every day and no two seats on any of our old 172s adjust quite the same.

I like the second response of trying to fly it out of ground effect... I just need to get establisahed in ground effect first... I have trouble judging how high I am sometimes with seats and planes being different.

[Tinstaafl]

Without trying to tromp over anything your instructor might have said...


You'll need a fairly long runway for this. The longer the better. What you'll be doing is separating by time each individual action that is normally done together or very closely together + enhancing your opportunity to learn the correct sight picture.

With your instructor with you, stabilise your approach at ~1.3 Vs and, instead of closing the throttle to land as you would do normally, add just sufficient power to fly S&L above the runway at that speed. The goal is to ensure your height perception is correct so that's where your instructor helps. The other goal is to get you looking far enough down the runway ie towards the end. Doesn't have to be the exact end but it's a convenient point to use to force you to look away from the approach aiming point. If you look too near while trying to fly level you'll over control in pitch and oscillate all the way. You'll eventually start using the point where apparent movement/closure ceases.

Once you get comfortable at flying just above the runway gradually reduce power. I do mean gradually... Just enough to cause you to be able to perceive a sink towards the runway. Use back pressure to prevent the a/c pitching nose down.

You will become able to set whatever sink rate you like by the rate/how much power you remove ie controlling sink with throttle. Chances are you'll touchdown with some power still on. Remember to fully close the throttle after touchdown.

Once you can 'ensure' a suitably controlled sink to a landing then the next step is to gradually prevent the sink by using back pressure/rasing the nose until the all power is removed. Thereafter you'll be in the conventional hold off/float situation but with better judgement/ability to perceive & correct sink.

The next step is to start reducing power before or just as you commence the flight path adjustment from the approach to the hold off.


NB: Given a suitably long(ish) runway this works well if you fly an unfamiliar type for the first time (fly level, then gradually close the throttles sufficient to cause a sink while raising the nose).

Good luck!

[kabz]

It's easy once you know what you really want to do ...

Whilst on final ...

1) visualize the flightpath you want above the runway
2) level the plane out onto the flight path
3) reduce power as necessary to descend

Hee hee, I got told this over the phone after a certain someone saw my flying, and it really transformed my landings.

Of course you should hold it off a bit, but if you can fly it level over the runway in ground effect, then you have a good shot at a decent landing.

I had loads of problems in 172s early on in training, always ballooning out of ground effect, etc, and this helped.

GOOD LUCK !!!!!

[spudskier]

Thanks to everyone for their help! I'm definately going to try those last two suggestions.

I didn't do too badly today, rwy 27 winds 29017G23 with a little luck I performed an almost perfect soft-field landing

just for another point of view I went up with another instructor today, one that hasn't flown with me since my first dozen hours and he mentioned that I somewhat let the controls or at least the wind correction go as soon as the wheels touched. I stopped doing that and it helped quite a bit. had no idea I was doing that!

Things are looking up! I start my instrument training in a week! (already in instrument ground school)