Spic? Picus? P1/s? Wtf?

[Flypuppy]

I remember the olden days (about 3 years ago) when life seemed fairly simple and P1/S meant pretty much what it said on the tin, ie pilot flying under supervision.

Now there are a couple of new T/FLA's floating around that to my simple mind, and simple it is, seem to have a very similar meaning

PICUS = Pilot in Command Under Supervision (errr P1/S?)
SPIC = Student Pilot in Command (uuhhh P1/S?)

Are there anymore I have missed? Is it JAR-speak? Why has my brain melted? (again) :confused:

[mad_jock]

Yep its all gone tits up m8 ;)

PICUS is for when your sitting in a nice machine as a FO handeling or with an examiner sitting next to you in a SPA.

SPIC is for an intergrated student who don't have a license who need to to have x amount of PIC time for license issue.

If you have alook at lasors it explains all. annex B in the first couple of chapters. I would post the link but it takes my ****e laptop 25mins to load the fecker up.

MJ

[FlyingForFun]

Yes, I agree - it's all in LASORS.

Except that LASORS still doesn't tell us what to log when we fly with an instructor but we are not under instruction - for example, on a club check-out. It doesn't say we log PICUS for that. And it doesn't explicitly say we can't. But it doesn't give us any other ideas, either.

Is it too much for us to ask for a definitive answer, once and for all, to this simple, common question?

FFF
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[Evo]

I think the question is "is a club checkout [or other non-teaching flight with an instructor] a flight test with a JAA or CAA Authorised Examiner"?

If it is, then LASORS says you can log it as P1/s (assuming you pass it!). If a checkout isn't a "flight test" or if the instructor doesn't count as a "JAA or CAA Authorised Examiner" (whatever that is) then I guess you cannot. I'm not sure why anybody cares anyway, as I thought that on single-crew aeroplanes the CAA counts P1s as Pu/t for the purposes of licence issue.

Could alway try asking the CAA - englishal seems to manage to get replies from them :)

[BillieBob]

I thought that this one had been put to bed long ago. I have it in writing from the CAA that club checkouts, biannual flights with an instructor, etc are not tests for the purposes of the logbook. Any flights like these, where the individual is not nominated as PIC should be entered as 'Dual'.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Yep. Checkouts with club instructors are dual flights, always have been.

[Evo]

I thought that this one had been put to bed long ago.


Oh no, it's still alive and well on the Private Flying forum :)

[FlyingForFun]

Exactly, Evo.

BillieBob, that's exactly what I've always done, and what I've recommended whenever it's been discussed, although I've never seen it in writing - interesting to hear that you've got written confirmation.

However, neither LASORS, nor any other official document I know of, will confirm this. They make no mention of this type of flight at all. And although LASORS tells us that PICUS is to be used for successful completion of a flight test, it does not use the word "only", and so does not exclude using PICUS for other things. This is the reason for the confusion, and is the reason why it keeps being raised (usually in Private Flying) every few months.

FFF
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[Luke SkyToddler]

I wish it WAS specified only for flight tests - because then it would stop this bloody proliferation down under here, of dodgy freight / air taxi operators making a quick extra $50 per hour by selling PICUS on multi piston types to gullible young wannabes who should know better :mad: :mad: :mad:

[machonepointone]

Flypuppy, you did miss one - PIC (=solo). Evo, an Authorised Examiner is someone like me - all it takes is an intensive two week course conducted by two or three former CAA examiners followed by a flight test conducted by two current examiners. It means that I can do CPL Skill Tests and Class Rating renewals/revalidations. In some ways it replaces the old Type Rating Examiner plus it means that people like me can do some of the flight tests that used to be the prerogative of CAA Examiners.

For the record, SPIC can ONLY be logged by students on an integrated CPL/IR course. Furthermore it can also ONLY be logged when undertaking an I/F flight. During the course of such a flight, the instructor cannot give any instruction whatsoever other than to ask the student to carry out certain manoeuvres. If the instructor has to take control of the aircraft other than to take avoiding action on another aircraft, then the flight is deemed to be dual and must be logged as such. To qualify for licence issue at the end of the course a student must have a minimum of 50 hours of SPIC.

PICUS can be logged when someone has successfully passed a flight test. If the test result is a fail or a partial pass then the entire flight time has to be logged as dual (sorry, my age is showing), I mean P/UT.

Hope that has helped.

[Evo]

Thanks - you and others have just about cleared up the P1s thing for us PPLs. Just trying to get it straight for next time - and there will be a next time over on Private Flying ;) ...

The fact that a plain-vanilla FI isn't an examiner puts the issue to bed (no 'examiner', no P1s) but there's one point that i'm still uncertain about; what counts as a "flight test"? The PPL skills test counts - I logged it P1s because I figured that would be one of the few times that I could ever log that :) - and I'm guessing the CPL and IR tests also count. IMC too? What about IR/IMC renewals? However, it isn't unreasonable to consider a club checkout flight a flight test (you can fail it, in a way), so if this bit was cleared up in LASORS then the confusion would probably go away.

[BillieBob]

To qoute from the letter I got from the CAA -

"The training flight with an instructor, required by JAR-FCL 1.1.245(c)(1)(ii)(A) may not be considered as a flight test. A flight test for these purposes is a Skill Test or Proficiency Check for the award, revalidation or renewal of a licence or rating (including examiner authority). Check rides required by flying clubs, syndicates or aircraft owners and other flights required for insurance purposes are not considered to be flight tests. "

Seems pretty clear. It's a pity they can't put something similar in LASORS.