Mays Pof exam,results crap, why?

[My names Turkish]

Guys and Girls, I studied very hard for Pof to the extent that other subjects suffered. I don't want to sound arrogant but I covered the subject top to bottom and really understood it, did thousands of feedback questions and the teacher at my school has/had a very good pass rate said I was looking good for it. I was horrified to have got a mark in the 50's. I thought I might have been on my own, but the whole class failed too.

My extensive network of spies also tells me that there was a very large failure rate in Oxfords class aswell. So was it just us two schools, are we all thick? Are we doomed to a life of flipping burgers and asking "Would you like to supersize for an extra $.60?" I would be very intrested to hear from anyone who sat the test or previous tests even its just to confirm that we are all thick as a plank. Answers on a Postcard!

[oxford blue]

Suggest that this thread be combined with this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90594) one and this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89179) one.

[My names Turkish]

Oops,sorry should have looked before I leaped although I have never heard Pof being referred to as theory of flight

[Craggenmore]

You are right about Oxford, almost the entire class went down and this happened to be the only subject that people went down in from Phase 1.

Something seems to be evidently wrong here if other schools had similiar results.

[Alex Whittingham]

The pass rate across the UK for P of F oscillates so that between 50% and 80% of the candidates pass at each sitting. It's too early to say definitively what happened to our students this month but they certainly didn't all pass and they didn't all fail. I'd guess about half passed. They all said it was 'interesting'!

[Davidils20l]

I passed performance last module in the nintees, but yet only 70'2 for p.o.f. Although I passed, i think there was some luck in it. I knoew the feedback strong, yet recognised very little. The questions were not very clear, or if the questions were alright the answers were not justified. I agree that it was not a very fair paper and so hope you please don't feel that this is a knock down on your knowledge or ability. Its just JAR.
Good luck next time ( Luck is very impotant)

[My names Turkish]

Last time I checked, these exams weren't an english comprehension test. It brasses me off when I read the answer, get all excited because I know the answer and then read the answers and can't decipher what the hell they are talking about. If I was in conversation with someone I could explain the answer. Maybe open ended answers would be better. Why should it be a case of luck whether you pass or fail?

[NineEighteen]

Last time I checked, these exams weren't an english comprehension testI think you'll find that's exactly what they are. I believe they're designed to test our understanding of the English language as well as the obvious aviation related stuff.

I agree that it can be highly frustrating though! :*

[My names Turkish]

Strongly disagree. English is my first language, got high grades in school. I understand that you have to be able to speak it but how can you justify a situation where you would be better off with and open ended answer than multichoice? It seems a bit much but then maybe I'm the naive one?

[Davidils20l]

Multiple choice is alot more requiring than open answer questions.
It is obviouse that a great deal of people have a good understanding of the subject, but yet can not "choose" an answer that jar wants. I feel by the time we all sit these exams we have a good knowledge. If we were able to sit open ended tests, i think we would all ( not everone but a good percentage pass). Unfortunatly now it is a case of " Do I pick this answer or this one"

[NineEighteen]

...how can you justify a situation where you would be better off with and open ended answer than multichoice?I can't justify that but I'm personally quite glad the questions are multiple choice (especially for Air Law :p). Quite often the answers lead me towards understanding the question.

This is where feedback questions can be counter-productive because the brain thinks it recognises a question and if you've got time pressure it's highly tempting to fall into a trap.

P.S. Can you imagine how much we'd get charged for taking the exams if the answers were open-ended? It would take the CAA ages to mark the papers and there could be huge disagreements on wordings etc...:rolleyes:

[clubley]

I am as nervous as hell.

Because of work I took the decision to spread my exams out. And at sitting number 5, took, what I hoped was my last lot of exams, which included POF and Perf.

I thought I was ready for those two, but failed, getting 68 in both. I studied the subjects and practiced with feed back questions. But as everyone knows the April papers where a total shock (trying to guess what the examiner was after, when two answers are pretty much correct, I found difficult) I had intended to re sit in June, but have chickened out and gone for July. But now, it doesn't matter how much study I put in AGAIN, I really do feel that it boils down to the luck of the day! rather than knowledge.

From the April paper and reading everyones comments here, I am now very worried, as the sitting in July is number 6. I didn't have any of these problems with the other 12 exams, why these????

Why does the CAA (JAA) always seem to hamper the progress of new pilots, and qualified pilots. Yes, we should be highly knowledgeable in our field, but that knowledege should be tested fairly. They don't even stick to there own learning objectives.

Why doesn't the CAA have an ombudsman that they are a acounterable to? They seem only to be accountable to themselves (other than parliment) and so are not interested in appeals from schools and individuals. Perhaps we should seek out our local MP's

I know the saying that "a bad workman blame his tools". But in this case I have worked very hard, and truely do not believe the all the exam questions are fair.

Does anyone from the CAA ever read PPrune and care what people comment on? or is it just case of the old school, "we did that way so should you"!

[My names Turkish]

Clubley, I was getting worried for a minute that I was the only one of this opinion. We all sympathise with your situation and its the nightmare situation that we all hope we don't find ourselves in. I'm sure you will show us your resolve and blitz the next round. Be carefull of falling into the overstudy trap though, where you start over analyzing the questions. You really shouldn't feel its your fault, you were thrown two curveballs, simple as that.

I'm also of the opinion that the Caa are totally unacountable. Surely something has to give when a large amount of people fail Pof and Perf (they kind of go hand in hand don't they?) Your right about the learning objectives. They approved the books for my school and then asked us something that wasn't really covered, how can they move the goal posts like that? It seems outrageous to suggest that luck is required, isin't knowing the subject enough?

So perhaps someone with a more detailed knowledge of the Caa could suggest a course of Action? And if any of the Caa employees read this can you enlighten us?

[stator vane]

the thing has gotten out of hand!!

it is unethical for the tests to be that difficult and so unrelated to actual flying.

there are some bastards in the high seats whose real motivation is money. nothing else makes any sense. or else some who were abused as children and had some friend or family connections that got them into the positions that create these tests. and since they are computer graded, the results should be available in five minutes.

it still amazes me that the pilot group as a whole has allowed this to develope to this stage.

then again, why is car fuel so expensive in the UK. i think it is the for the same reasons.

we need to get together and somehow bring this whole thing back down to the ground. but then again, there are lots of school personnel who stand to gain lots of money as it stands now. so for every pilot that would fight to change the system, there will be two or three that want it to stay the same or even get worse.

with the restricted list of approved schools, they can just about charge what they want and then turn to you after the test and say, "you should have studied harder."

i feel for you, but in my position can't do much for you except to pledge to all, that when i get a chance, i will do what i can to briing some reality into the system. we should all pledge to do that as well.

i don't know how, but POF was one of my best 93.

[clubley]

We should start forming a group of interested people from here.
Get enough interest, then perhaps we can then approach our MP's with something creditable. Rather than just appear to be one lone person having a moan because they find the exams difficult. Which is excatly what we will be accused off.

Campaign for an ombudsman, as there are more than one issue to be addressed.

[FlyingForFun]

I think the chances of anyone convincing the CAA to make the exams easier are somewhere between zero and none. Basically, because it is no one's interest to make them easier.

Currently, there are far more pilots than jobs. Making exams easier means there will be even more pilots fighting for the same number of jobs. That means airlines will get even more CVs, which they won't have the time and resources to sort through. The greater supply of pilots would probably cause salaries to fall, through the laws of supply and demand. And all those pilots who pass the easier exams would be sat at home wondering why they can't get jobs - even more than newly-qualified pilots are already. Sorry, but it's not going to happen.

On the other hand, if we were talking about making the exams more relevant, then I'd back you 100%. There is a big difference between something being relevant and something being easy.

FFF
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[stator vane]

since i am a misplaced yankee, one of the natives will have to start the line-up. i could be a reference to prove that over 5000 hours as captain B737 never uses 99.9 percent of the information contained in the 14 absurdly difficult exams.

simply ask anyone who passed them all, to come back in just one year and see how much can be retained.

walk up to any captain, BA even, and give him one of the exams, and watch his reaction.

yes, something should be done, and could be done, but how do we start?

even though i have passed, i think it is unethical for me not to do what i can to save other wannabees from having to go through this if possible. it robs people of their money. it is enough to keep good people from ever becoming a pilot. and really the only screening it does is through the pockets.

the tests should be controlled by active pilots!!! and pilots who are not connected with the flow money that is involved in the tests system or restricted training system.

but it does strike me as similar to the fire fighters and school teachers going up against people who are stupid enough to wear fake wigs whilst working. there is something wrong with that picture! when the ones at the helm dress like they are going to some party. and of course they are. they are getting bloody rich from the laws they are making.

tell me what can be done.

[ravenx]

I think this is what annoys me more than anything about the exams. I am intotal agreement that there is no point in making them any easier. I think we all want to feel safe in the skies and be re-assured that those flying the big stuff really do understand what they are doing.

However, the ATPLS do absolutle nothing to prepare you for commercial aviation.

I naively thought when I started the course that 6 months later I would emerge with so much information and knowledge. Well, here I am 6 months later feeling none the wiser. The only things I've learnt includes crap like "how the navigation message from the GPS systems is constructed". I defy anyone on this forum to explain to me what possible use that information is. However, perhaps a part of the syllabus aimed directly at intepreting SID's and STAR's (and I mean really learning how to read them, not the passing reference in flight planning) would be so useful. But is that in there - is it hell !!

They seem hell bent on taking your money off you and proving how obtuse they can make the questions. They seem to be completely oblivious to the fact they are supposed to be teaching us about commercial flying - perhaps someone should remind them.

[TRon]

What I totally disagree with in these exams is the way that they seems to be worded in order to confuse you over a subject or area you might actually know.

For example, on a drag curve they put A B C D what is the the point which shows the best CL/CD point, yet in the answers..
A) C B) D etc etc.

This I find totally wrong and whilst I appreciate their computer randomises the answers, it is unfare to do this to people.

There are whispers that JAA will be publishing the question bank in the future being led from the French AA who have been anti it the whole time.

The main argument against it is that people merely learn answers and not the subject, well i cant honestly say I can remember squat from my first set of 7.

Then there is the £2 rise in exam costs thats a 4% rise and last time I checked inflation was 3%, and for what?. I have not yet seen an explanation..

[Keith.Williams.]

There are to fundamental problems with the current system:

The first is that because no proper training needs analysis was ever carried out, the sylabus is nothing more than a "good ideas" list produced by a very large committee. It is therefore hardly surprising that it has little relevance to the future training or employment of air transport pilots.

The second (and distinctly separate) problem is the dreadful wording of many of the questions. It is absolutely true that a comprehensive knowledge of the subject is no guarantee that you will be able to pass the exams. Indeed in some cases, a thorough knowledge of the subject is likely to make selection of the required answer more difficult.

An example of this can be found in another recent string in this forum where a member has posted a number of questions from a recent POF exam. One of the of the questions concerns climbing at constant Gamma (climb angle). Only one option includes constant Gamma, so any student who reads the question carefully, but who knows nothing about the subject is likely to select this option. Any student who has a reasonable understanding of the subject will however realise that this option is true only for a jet aircraft climbing at less than VX (VMD). The JAA amswer to this likely to be that only one option includes constant Gamma, so it is obvious that this is the correct answer.
The problem of the limited applicability of this answer is of no relevance.

Sadly the JAA do not recognise that they have a problem. The consistently low pass rates in six or seven subjects (including POF) are put down to students failing to read the questions properly. The fact that more than 97% of the very same students consistently manage to correctly read the questions in other subjects (such as COMMs) is overlooked.

[My names Turkish]

Great to her there are others out there who are in the same boat. So maybe someone who knows the CAA system a little better than me could tell us how to make our thoughts made to the CAA. Or are they as I suspect a completly unaccountable organization who wont be changed in their ways?

[TRon]

I dont think the CAA are completely 'unnaccountable' and they do take on what we say, but never do anything about it.

I remember having a guy round our school from the CAA and he was a really nice guy and accepted everything we said such as the inability to get results back in time for the next months deadline for resits. I think it was more a 'PR" excercise more than anything else.

I think our little ramblings here will go largely unnoticed simply because changing the current question bank significantly would be such a mamouth task and maybe why they are thinking of publishing the questions. But hey, it's only 52 quid an exam......

I am completely with Keith here and unfortunately the way they are going really puts a sour taste in my mouth at this early stage. It just feels like us against them, when they should be there to regulate us as well as help us.

If the FAA can manage it, why cant we in Europe?.

I mean you can sit your exams in yor school there. Everytime we have to go to gatwick it's £40 a night in anyones money to stay there. Then we have to wait 2 weeks for results and miss the deadline for next months resits...

I think the system as it stands stinks but in the words of a man far more wise than me "It's a huge s**t sandwhich and we all have to take a bite.."

See You all Monday...Then Maybe August...Then maybe September.....!

[stator vane]

as i wrote earlier, i will do what i can to change the system however i can.

an attitude of accepting to eat the sandwhich is why it is this way to begin with.

i realize there is a fear factor until one gets his JAA licence in hand, and then the need to go back to these same people every few years or so, and hoping that one's name is not put on their black list.

and the laze faire attitude after one has played the game, to forget about it and hold an attitude of "if i had to do it, they can too."

but when history is read, nothing good is squeezed out of the "powers that be" at any given time without determination and often the efforts of those who have nothing to gain but much to lose.

it needs to change. but we all do need to realize it would be easier to talk a wall into moving than getting any government agency to do anything except their expert self-serving work avoidance manuevers.

[Tinstaafl]

As Keith says, the exam development 'system' is inherently flawed: Not only are the knowledge areas developed from a 'it seemed like a good idea at the time...' method, but also the questions aren't properly validated before being released to use.

[Stratocaster]

Any insider on the forum who knows how the questions are chosen for the exams ?
I heard they're picked up randomly by a computer, then a folk from the CAA will cross-check that there are no two identical questions. Database is updated every month (100 questions removed, 100 questions added in every subject, but not much change in general except numbers in the exercises). National CAAs must connect to the JAA server to get the updates.

I'm not sure this is correct (just a rumour, there's no way I could confirm that myself) and I don't know if this is the standard JAA procedure that every state should follow.