Ice checks for IMC rating course

[pondlife]

I've just had one of my IMC student pass his IMC test.
The examiner later told me not to bother teaching to do icing checks because it ups the work load and if there's any chance of icing then you wouldn't do the trip in a single with no de-ice anyway.
That surprised me.

No doubt any candidate couldn't be failed for doing ice checks if they weren't considered necessary by the examiner, but if an examiner disagreed with this one and required ice checks then, presumably, the candidate could be failed if he didn't do any.
What do the rest of you examiners require for this one.

[Ludwig]

Not an examiner but a humble PPL with an active IMC. I always do ice checks as whether or not I intended to get into icing I might have done. Far safer to check ice automtically, than not to bother; one day it might safe my life. Sounds like the difference between training to get the badge, and training to do it properly to me. Absolutely stupid to effectively bollock you for over training your pupils.:confused:

[witchdoctor]

I did once manage to get an examiner to say "I think that's enough ice checks now". Must have been doing them every couple of minutes on a beautiful clear and sunny day.:D

For what it's worth though, keep up the current method you're teaching. They get done for a reason and need to become second nature. Your examiner wouldn't tell a student not to check fuel or T&P would he?:ok:

[Tinstaafl]

I think I've flown in IMC in more a/c without anti/de-icing than in those with, singles & multis. Sort of negates that examiners rationale.

It can up the workload, but time & workload management is what single pilot ops is about.

[BEagle]

Cover it at the briefing. Confirm that the applicant understands the icing limitations appropriate to the aeroplane being flown for the test. Ask him/her how he/she would avoid icing; check understanding of how to escape from it. Then state that the test will be conducted using 'foggles' (not those b£oody stupid and higly dangerous bits of tin that the CAA insist upon for IRs), that you will not direct the applicant into possible icing conditions and that you will advise him/her if unexpected icing occurs.

[Snigs]

Surely none of you would commence a flight in a non anti/de-ice equipped a/c when the temperature is below freezing on the ground, and the cloud base is 800 feet.

Isn't it important to know why you need to do ice checks rather than doing them for show!

In my training I was taught "outside air temperature is minus...... check for ice" or "outside air temperature is plus......... no ice"

[bluskis]

Then the routine should be- check OAT at regular intervals if flying within say 5C of freezing, and certainly when climbing.

Actual icing checks only necessary when actually in cloud.

So under foggles, ask for OAT check to avoid looking up, and the examiner can give below zero call if he wants a check of the airframe called for.

[excrab]

It seems very strange for an examiner to make such a statement. He/she is after all testing the candidate for a rating which could be used on any single engine aircraft - the candidate could go and get into a de-iced P210 or similar when icing checks would be vital.

If icing checks are taught right from the start then come the time that the student progresses to an aircraft which requires them hopefully they will have become second nature.

[Another_CFI]

As an examiner I must disagree with BEagle. I expect the candidate to ask for ice checks during the IMC flight test for the very reasons stated by excrab. At some time during the test, even in the height of summer, I will respond to one of the ice checks by telling the candidate that a quantity of ice has accumulated on the leading edge of the wings. As soon as the candidate states what action (s)he would take the “ice” disappears and the flight can continue as planned.

Expecting an ice check in an aircraft that is not cleared for flight in any form of icing conditions is no different to the check of undercarriage in the standard BUMFFICH pre-landing checks when flying an aircraft with fixed undercarriage.

[DFC]

I consider that ice checks are essential for all flights in visible moisture regardless of the aircraft equipment.

From experience, the first icing check is completed immediately on entering visible moisture. Note I said visible moisture and not cloud. The check is that the pitot heat is on, what the OAT is and if there is any ice forming.

Pilots on the IMC course seem to be taught that they will only get ice build-up in cloud at sub zero OAT. Not true.

It is in fact possible to pick up severe ice on the airframe while flying in VMC.

It is also possible to pick up ice on the airframe when the OAT is positive.

Regards,

DFC

[bluskis]

It is of course possible to pick up icing on an airplane not equipped for dealing with icing, so the checks are still relavent in non de iced singles.

Point taken re icing in conditions above zero, hence looking from say 5C, climbing, and certainly descending from 1C or 2C.

Can you always see icing!!

[DFC]

Of course, icing can be hard to see at night. Especially in a single or twin without ice lights. Shining the torch out the window is the best you can do.

Clear ice can be hard to detect visually.

However, in flight ice builds up on the smaller leading edges before the large ones. Thus ice will form on the tail and propeller leading edges before being detected on the wing leading edges. So if you can see ice building on the wing leading edge, there will often be more on the tail. Something to encourage you to get out of those conditions.

For pilots of the Piper aircraft or similar with the OAT probe extending from the windscreen, the initial indication of ice formation will be seen on the forward side of the probe.

This can also be used to judge when to activate the de-ice boots on aircraft that have them.

Regards,

DFC

[DesiPilot]

Pondlife,

I disagree with this particular examiner as well. As BEagle mentioned its good to cover everything during the briefing, but I do not see anything wrong in checking the wings and carb heat for icing.

The examiner later told me not to bother teaching to do icing checks because it ups the work load and if there's any chance of icing then you wouldn't do the trip in a single with no de-ice anyway

I also do not agree that if theres any chance of icing then you wouldn't do the trip....... If used properly IMC rating is get out of the trouble (clouds) rating. Which in theory means that a PPL holder has encountered unforcasted weather. Perhaps there was no chance of icing or even chances of going in the clouds, but you are in there anyway.

By all means continue teaching it. I make the students here in FL check for icing in the middle of summer (sometimes as hot as 40 degrees C).

All I can say is keep up the good work and congratulations to your student.

Cheers,
Jatin :)

[blue heron]

Just finished my IR, and the examiner expected to be briefed on it pre T/O plus a check of the OAT every thousand feet and if necessary any external icing.

Throughout my training it was pushed as a complusory check by all instructors, after all despite the conditions outside it can never be seen as a bad habit, as there are plenty of stories where people have been caught out by ignoring such a check.

[Baseturn]

NO ICE CHECKS MADNESS just because the aircraft is not eqipped for flight in icing conditions doesnt mean it wont get it!!!!.

Given the serious nature of airframe impact and induction icing the Pilot should always check for it . He/she is then better equipped to deal with the conditions and able to make the decision on wether to climb or descend.

The ice checks also remind you to use the carb heat, check the oat. I teach my students M A S H T P O I D, it takes about 30 seconds to complete and could save your life. I cant think of a better reason.

I might suggest that if this increases the students workload too much then He or she ought not to be there.

Just my view



:eek:

[pilotbear]

At night you may not, in fact you cannot see the cloud until you are in it. If ice checks are not encouraged it may be too late by the time you realise you have any.
I also encourage ice checks with a torch on the Night Rating.:8

Also of note is, that if you have a small amount of ice on the wing of a Piper single then you will have a significant amount on the tailplane.:uhoh:

Not to teach and encourage obvious safety routines is sheer laziness in my book.:(

pilotbear:ok:

[FormationFlyer]

DesiPilot If used properly IMC rating is get out of the trouble (clouds) rating. Which in theory means that a PPL holder has encountered unforcasted weather. Perhaps there was no chance of icing or even chances of going in the clouds, but you are in there anyway.

WTF? Hello!?

1. If the IMC was a get out of trouble ticket the ANO should have been written differently. Read it. It gives you privileges - personally I used them. Its like saying a night qual is a get out of trouble ticket - in case of accidental excursion into night!!

2. Ah. The 'inadvertent IMC' myth perpetuated yet again....there is NO substitute for lookout - and if pilots can actually be bothered to stop w****** over the GPS and look outside they may actually notice the bloody great cloud they are flying at - THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS INADVERTENT IMC WHEN FLYING VMC.

Its simple - pilots PURPOSELY fly into cloud. The ONLY - and I mean *only* time inadvertent IMC is possible is @ night. End of story. Lets see....PA28 95kts, C152 90kts cruise - Cloud um...10-25kts cruise - who is in the overtake situation?

Having spent the last 2 days watching a plethor of GA pilots doing friggin stupid things (not my a/c!) I can honestly say perhaps the PPL should be considered a licence to kill????? (especially the twin pilot who tried to stick his pointy bit up my chuff.....and the PA28 pilot who needs to read the rules regarding lookout and rights of way...im sure the airprox now coming his way will do just that...) :mad:

Re: Icing checks - they are there for a reason - forecast conditions are different to actual - if the pilot flying in IMC finds the actual conditions different to forecast he may well pick up icing in a single - if he hasnt done the checks he isnt going to spot it.

Re: BUMFICH - I dont teach undercarriage anymore after good quality advice from RAF Central Flying School....I now teach BMFICH....almost as good - pronounced almost the same...works for me.

Re: Ice Checks at Night - Yep. I too encourage pilots to do ice checks every 1000' in the climb and on the end of what I now do...FREDAL checks become FREDALI :)