Long Range Non Penetrator (lrnp)

[BEagle]

Interesting bit in one of today's Sunday chip wrappers. It seems that a feasibility study is being carried out on a 'bomb truck' - a long range aeroplane which will launch Storm Shadow etc from extended range. In other words, it wouldn't need to penetrate enemy defences in order to launch stand-off weapons. Hence the acronym LRNP.

Types being considered are, apparently, A400M, C17, A330 and....C130. This seems like the old 'Dumb aircraft, clever weapon' idea - but it would obviously be much cheaper to modify a big aircraft to carry long-range stand-off weapons than to buy a fleet of B2s.

Of course you couldn't then do clever things like the rapid repsonse and re-targetting so publicly revealed when a B1B took out Saddam (perhaps) half-way through the fish course in a Baghdad nosh house - unless, that is, having launched your stand-off weapons you could employ over-the air re-targetting?

The other advantage is that such an aeroplane needn't be single-role. Your A400M could fly as a trash-hauler one day, move grunts around on another - and then launch stand-off weapons on yet another. No need for targetting radar, self-defense suites, etc - just a 'smart' remote targetting team and, of course, a weapon launching system. Not quite sure how that would be achieved - para-extracted or pylon mounted, perhaps? Presumably when A400M was being considered as a MPA replacement in its earlier FLA days, some study work was carried out regarding the carriage and launch of weapons?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Sorry to sully the topic with an irrelevant post, Beags - I just wanted to observe that its title is a pretty accurate description of my love-life while I followed the flag all those years (sigh...)

[BEagle]

Ah - but as an old Chipmunk QFI once said to me "You might build up an appetite when you're out - but you can always eat at home!"

Or perhaps he was just another DNCOer!

LRNP is a pretty silly acronym in any case. I prefer 'PMB' - or Poor Man's Bomber!

It does sound a bit as though someone's trying to re-invent the Skybolt!

[Flatus Veteranus]

Nevertheless, lacking an upgraded Vulcan, BEagle, it sounds quite sensible. Presumably the "non-penetrating" bit means that the Concept of Operations assumes that the EAD (if any) will have been neutralised by other assets. I always assumed that the B1 that spoilt Saddam's evening was loitering, ready for any such tasking, and did not have to fly far to release its weapons. Presumably LRNP could launch weapons of the JADMS type as well as Storm Shadow.

[Grob Driver]

Well, I’ve always wished that the RAF could find a use for Concorde… Maybe this could be it?… Then again… maybe not!

[tony draper]

I thought long range stand off stuff was the Trident Subs job,always seemed a waste of a lot of missile sticking a convention warheads on em to me though.

[Woff1965]

The USAF looked at this in the late 70's, the idea was that a Boeing 747 would be converted to carry 72 AGM86B internally - I am not sure how they were launched - the photo I saw did not show the launch method - although there appeared to be 2 doors in the lower rear fuselage.

The difficulty in spotting the launch aircraft located well over the radar horizon makes this potentially a very effective system. As the weapons would be launched from long range the risk of intercept should be quite low, the onboard avionics would not even have to be that sophisticated. Certainly no requirement for massive and powerful jammers or expensive stealth designs or materials. They may even be multirole by being easily converted to/from transport to tanker to stand-off missileer.

It certainly makes a lot of sense. The key question however should be the weapons carried; a subsonic weapon flying at 600 Mph launched from 600 miles would take 1 hour to reach the target, what is really wanted is a weapon that could do the journey at 6000 MPH and get there in 10 minutes, reaction times are becoming more and more critical - targets of opportunity pop up and disappear rapidly, they move, they drive into tunnels. Even with a man in the loop some targets are going to be lost in the time between launch and impact, the shorter that time is the better.

So yes a "missile caddy" is a good idea but a better one may well be to develop hypersonic weapons to go along with it.

[BEagle]

You're right. MJ. It was rather early when I read the e-paper, so your acronym is probably the correct one!

Still prefer 'Poor Man's Bomber' though.....

[Shackman]

You've all forgotten one thing - the movers would get in on the act, declare it Dangerous Air Cargo and ensure that all explosives, fuel etc be removed and carried separately. Oh, and of course no launch crew could be carried with the weapons (just in case someone tried to use it). Leastways, thats what they seem to do with any other weapons etc to be carried on anything else in their empire! :\

Pertama

[Biggus]

But surely the RAF is already in the process of buying an "LRNP" aircraft, or rather an aircraft that could do that as one of its many roles. With an extensive range, good loiter time, the planned ability to carry and deploy all airborne weapons in the NATO inventory, good comms fit for airborne re-targetting etc. Yes its "throw weight" is probably not as high as a dedicated LRNP might have, but what the hell!

What is it called? Why the Nimrod MRA4 (the A stands for attack). Before you all start falling off your seats laughing, read the aircraft specs and think about it. Provided the "Maritime boys" don't just treat it like the old Nimrod, and provided the "Tonka mates" don't fight turf wars to keep it out it offers interesting possibilities to anyone with any vision!

Just one drawback. You will have to wait 5/6/7/8/9/10/never* years for it to come into service.

* Delete as applicable.

[Charlie Luncher]

Biggus

Your are right on the money old fella, when you consider what the sensor package can do and with the capable weapons load what else do you need?

UK Maritime has already thought it through and has moved ahead as have the allies, the only things slowing maritime down is the in service date of XXXX, monkeys in charge at strike who don’t understand, the uncivil serpents advising them and no operators as those mentioned earlier have pissed them all off with their management strategies and plans not to mention retention measures or lack off:*

Rant over now where did I put that glass of Shiraz:D

Charlie sends

[sprucemoose]

A certain weekly defence publication operating from a secret Surrey location actually wrote about this in great detail in late January - still, it's nice to see Fright International and the Sundays get the credit for reading the MoD Contracts Bulletin!
My understanding is that the study is going to concentrate initially on the C-130 - I know you're now it's biggest fan, BEagle, but the A400M won't be available in time!;)

[Klingon]

Its just about the only thing that might keep the A400 project alive.:hmm:

[BEagle]

A400M fan? Yes, I reckon that it'll be an excellent mutli-role ac. But it won't have anything like the capacity of the C-17. Whether the RAF will acquire more C-17s due to A400M delay, I don't know. Perhaps it could have a PMB role; since metal hasn't yet been cut, designing such a capability at this stage would be perfectly feasible.

It seems that the C130K and the VC10 will carry on for a good few years yet, thanks to the delays to FSTA ("This programme will NOT slip to the right, I can guarantee", said one civil serpent about 4 years ago....) and to FLA/A400M. So if/when someone finally orders it and it flies 4 1/2 years later, there's a better-than-even chance that the ancient aircraft it will replace will be long past their use-by dates!

The recent flight deck mock-up photos of the A380 show precisely how gucci the A400M flight deck will be. Not just a digitally re-mastered Herc like the C130J (which seems to have finally acquitted itself well - despite all the delays) - but a very 21st century design.

It could have alimited AAR role; however, to promote that capability might cause EADS difficulty in trying to push the A330 as a tanker/transport - so they're a bit stuffed there. Mind you, there is another tanker/transport made by Airbus which fits the bill for most countries which will fly later this year - the A310MRTT which is being built for the Luftwaffe and Canadian Forces by converting existing transport airframes. Much more capable as a tanker than the A400M, plenty of cargo space, fitted with an upper deck cargo door, 72 tonnes of fuel, 3 person operation (2 pilots and an Air Refuelling Operator) - but obviously without the A400M's short-field capabilities.

[BEagle]

At last!

"A400 finally gets German approval" reported in Defence Systems Daily headlines. I don't have any further details - I'm sure that ORAC will oblige?

[steamchicken]

The Frankfurter Allgemeine has no mention of anything even related to Airbus or Airbuses in the last week. Don't believe it until it's in the FAZ (the NY Times of Germany)

[sprucemoose]

BEags:
Yep, the seemingly impossible has happened - Germany has approved funding for its 60 ac, and the 180-aircraft contract will be signed with OCCAR in Bonn on 27 May.
Coming soon(ish) to a secret Wiltshire airbase near you?
What do the truckies think about this contract finally getting through - good thing?

[ORAC]

Steamchicken,

FAZ May 23rd (http://www.faz.com/IN/INtemplates/eFAZ/docmain.asp?rub={B1311FCC-FBFB-11D2-B228-00105A9CAF88}&doc={468AEDA9-A6DA-4253-9CF2-CF0A3809AC3E}) - "A big step in transforming the military to a more mobile force took place this week when the budget committee approved the EUR8.3 billion for the cooperative European Airbus project that guarantees the German military 60 new A400 military transport aircraft by 2012, down from the 73 originally planned."

[BEagle]

Thanks ORAC- knew we could rely upon you!

If the contract is signed on 27 May 2003, then that means the first A400M should fly before the end of January 2008....??

[BlueWolf]

BLIMP, or Balloon Launched Interdiction Missile Platform, promises to become the definitive offensive weapons delivery system of the early 21st century.

At the heart of the system, helium-filled airships carrying a variety of air-launched stand-off missiles will be stationed just beyond the radar horizons of potentially hostile nations.

Drawing power from thousands of reflective, radar-confusing solar cells attached to their outer envelopes, these dirigibles will be capable of loitering on station for several weeks at a time, or while food supplies last (Pilot Inflight Eating System, or PIES).

When not in use as a weapons platform, BLIMP can exercise its Variable Aeronautical Geographical Intelligent Navigational Abilities (V.A.G.I.N.A., or short field take-off and landing ability) as a swing-role transport and medevac aircraft. Use of this system in hostile theatres will gain approval once technical difficulties surrounding the fitting of DU armour plates to the helium envelope have been overcome.

I can't wait to see it in action....or the A400M....:) :) :)

[MightyGem]

BEagle, from what little I know of your illustrious career, sounds like you could get a job as an advisor on this LRNP project when you hand your blue stuff in :D

[sprucemoose]

I prefer the MBDA designation for this concept: the large non-penetrating aircraft (LNPA), which I have affectionately branded the MoD's leading soft porn procurement! :E

[BEagle]

Advisor on the PMB derivative of the A400M? Hmmm

There's going to be an A400M press conference at Bonn on Tuesday at 0830 GMT, 1030 CET. It'll be interesting to see whether the Poor Man's Bomber will be mentioned amongst the aircraft's other capabilities.

[A Civilian]

Does anyone see a worrying problem with these new A400-Lancaster bomber combinations. A poor mans bomber means that you can only use it against poor people who dont have any decent NV MANPADS avaliable, so does this mean that the RAF is going to turn into the old colonial RAF of the 1920's "I say chaps go bomb this village as it hasn't paid its tax's. Right'o sir, chocks away." type stuff.

I mean if this is the future air force it sucks :mad:

[Biggus]

A Civilian

A poor mans bomber is cheap, and can do other things when it is not "bombing" anybody! It is about cost savings, or increased efficiency. At the end of the day the country gets the air force (or should that be military) it is willing to pay for, more capability means more money required!!

Lots of talk of a further defence review (sorry, I mean cuts) post the Iraqi "conflict". Less Eurofighters, SSNs, heavy tanks, etc. Some of these might even be worthwhile changes. But will any money "saved" be re-directed, or will it just go back to that nice Mr Brown?

[Archimedes]

Civvy,

I fear you're under a misaprehension - the offical name of 'non-penetrating aircraft' gives it away. It would not actually fly over any target, be it defended with double digit SAMs or a a slightly short-sighted chap with a limp armed with an air rifle.

The aircraft would in fact be armed with stand off weapons - Storm Shadow being the obvious. The PMB, therefore, would ferry the missile to its launch point, release said weapon and head off for home sharpish (or as sharp as the engines on an A400M will convey you there). The missile would then penetrate enemy air space, avoid the defences and hit the target (if everything works as advertised).

The idea, therefore, isn't to go back to the old days of bombing villages, but to enable precision attacks to be carried out against heavily defended targets where the risks to a manned (inhabited if you prefer...) platform such as a GR4 would be substantial.

[ORAC]

Financial Times (http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1051390355873):

.....After years of delay and wrangling over funding the A400M order, Europe's most ambitious defence procurement project worth E20bn, was signed Tuesday by Occar, the European arms procurement agency, on behalf of seven European nations, and Airbus Military, indirectly a subsidiary of EADS......

Seven nations have placed orders for 180 aircraft comprising Germany with 60, France 50, Spain 27, the UK 25, Turkey ten, Belgium seven and Luxembourg one.

EADS said it was confident the A400M would also succeed in foreign markets and said it hoped to win more than 200 export orders during the next 20 years. It is hopeful the aircraft will win orders from countries seeking to replace ageing fleets of Lockheed Martin Hercules C-130s and the Franco-German C-160 Transalls.

The initial order programme for 180 aircraft will run to 2021 with the first due for delivery to the French and Turkish airforces in 2009, followed by the UK and Germany in 2010. The official in-service date for the Royal Air Force will be 2011 following delivery of the seventh of 25 aircraft.

RAF deliveries will be about 12 months later than agreed in December 2001 at the signing of the A400M memorandum of understanding chiefly due to protracted budgetary delays in Germany. For the RAF the A400M will replace its antiquated fleet of 26 Hercules C-130K aircraft dating from the 1960s.

The UK also has a fleet of modern Lockheed Martin C-130J aircraft purchased in the 1990s, and it is examining the possible purchase of up to nine larger C-17 transport aircraft from Boeing of the US including buying the four it currently has on lease.

[ft]

http://aerostories.free.fr/appareils/compopara/img21.jpg

(Full size) (http://aerostories.free.fr/appareils/compopara/Z6_01.JPG)

:p

/Fred

[BlueWolf]

From the NZ Herald of today. Spooky, but I do feel somewhat vindicated...


:)

Pentagon awards $40M for blimp contract

02.10.2003


The Pentagon has awarded Lockheed Martin a US$40 million ($68.8 million) contract to develop a high-flying, remote-controlled blimp that would monitor United States borders and scan the horizon for missiles.

The idea is to supplement radar and satellites. The helium-filled dirigibles could also be used to monitor combat zones overseas.

They would patrol at 19,500m or more and be powered by the sun.

The prototype will be about 150m long, 48m in diameter and have a volume of 150,000cu m.

A typical commercial blimp is about 60m long and 21m in diameter.

[Muppet Leader]

Got to come back in with regard to the nice note from Shackman on page one, about dangerous air cargo.

Safety-first old thing, please.

Unlike the young VC10 loadie during the Falklands skuffle, who had and aircraft full of palletised sidewinders, leased from Uncle Sam.
We nearly all had babies when the doors were opened at ASI.
She had removed every one of the “Remove Before Flight” ribbons.

:uhoh: