JAR ATPL conversion question

[williamsf1]

G'day all,

Is it possible to complete the required theory (14 subjects) with let say Bristol, and then the flight training in Spain?

If not, why isnt it possible?.... and if it is, is it as simple as taking the paper credits for the exams with you?

The reason for this is that it seems far cheaper to do the flying in Spain, but the quality if the home study ATPL will be important, thats why I have leaned so far to Bristol....

Anyone done home study from a spainish provider?? i.e.(in english)

any advice would be great!

[redsnail]

'Fraid not.
Page 3 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_G.pdf)

Bookmark "LASORS". That's where all the info is re the ATPL.

[C Lips]

You can do the flight training with a JAA approved school in Spain. If you are converting your license from another ICAO state there are two options depending on your experience and the aircraft ratings you have on your license.

If you have flown jets and have more than 500 hours on type you can do the skills test with a CAA examiner in the simulator.

If you have only flown light aircraft, I think you will have to do a commercial and instrument test.

Hope it helps
The CAA in the UK is nearly as bad as the Chinese CAD. Don't expect to get any help from them...............
:yuk:

[redsnail]

C lips,
Not exactly correct re 500 hours on jets. It doesn't have to be on jets, 500 hours multi crew experience on JAR 25 (or types requiring 2 crew under national law).

If not, then it's the abbreviated IR (min 15 hours) + a CPL test (I think).

The LASORS link has all the details.

I believe if you do some of the stuff in the UK, ie medical & exams then the flying must be done at a school approved by the UK.

[williamsf1]

G'day Reddo,

As you still seem to have you finger right on the pulse, do you know of any or the spainish flight training providers being valid for this path?

AEROFAN seems to be the best for the flight training, so I am hoping the theory can be done via bristol or another good quality home study mob!

any ideas?

[redsnail]

I really don't know about flying in Spain. I haven't done any. What is essential that if you do your exams etc in the UK the school in Spain will be UK approved for the CPL. I know Bae in Jerez is approved by the UK. (I don't think they do "modular" flying though)
I am not sure if the above applies for the IR though.
Whatever you do, get it in writing.

[Island Hopper]

Red,

I thought I was clear on this point, and now I'm doubting my understanding!
I have tried to get through to the CAA 3 times to clarify this point, but after 12 minutes on hold I gave up!

Which bit of Lasors ATPL Page 3 are you referring to?
If it's the bold writing entitled 'Important Note' then I think I'm reading it differently to you.

It begins with the words 'All requirements for licence issue' and then refers you to section A8, which is where I get the following:

As I understand it, there's no problem with doing your theory and medical in the UK, and the flying in, say, Spain.
Your licence would be issued by the Spanish CAA, and you would simply(!) have to fill out a short form 'Application to change the State of Issue to UK' and send it to Gatwick with your licence... and accompanying fee - obviously!

The man at Gatwick firstly sends your cheque to finance, then looks at your licence, medical and theory exam passes, and rings man at Madrid for a quick chat about it, and Hey Presto! you've transferred JAA licence issue to UK.

Since they're both JAA states, it's just an administrative thing. No extra training required.

That's how I read it.
Perhaps someone could confirm this for me. The CAA are far too busy!

IH

[FlyingForFun]

Williamsf1,

You were asking about schools approved by the UK to offer JAR training towarsd a UK-issued license. There is a complete and definitive list of schools, including those in Spain, in this document on the CAA's website (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_ApprovedFTOs.pdf).

FFF
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[williamsf1]

Thanks FFF,

I had a look through that link you posted, however the flight training providers that I had enquired with, and recieved a response from were not listed....

AIRMED (wasn't sure of the flight training part..)

AEROFAN FTO (seemed very professional, with little hassles)

AEROMADRID (as above, with both being about the 6500 euro)


Can you confirm that it is not possible to do the flying outside of the UK? I cant seem to find anyone worth mentioning to do the ATP theory subjects with in spain (distance learning)???


If anyone else has any confirmed knowledge on this tricky subject, as the CAA are next to usless on this matter.....


the grand plan would have to be Bristol for distance learning, and then the flight training in spain for the cost side of things....as I cant afford to live in either spain or sunny england for 6-9 months without work or cash!!

any ideas?

thanks :):):)

[FlyingForFun]

If a school claims to offer JAR training, ask them which State's Authority has approved them to offer this training. If it's anyone other than the UK, then, as it said in the link which Reddo provided right at the top of the thread, the training can not be combined with theory exams from a UK school.

If they claim to have been approved by the UK CAA, but they are not listed in the document which I've given the reference to, ask to see a copy of their certificate, and call the CAA to confirm that it's valid. The most likely explaination is that they're not being entirely honest with you - e.g. maybe they're applying for authorisation but haven't been granted it yet. Another explaination is that the CAA are slow to update the document with newly-authorised schools.

(I'm not implying that any of the schools you list are necessarilly being dishonest with you. I have no experience or knowledge of any of them, nor of their authorisation status.)

Hope that helps,

FFF
--------------

[FougaMagister]

WilliamsF1 - JAA-approved FTOs in Spain have to be registered with the Spanish CAA (known as the DGAC) - even BAE Systems Flight Training in Jerez (very much a British FTO) has had to transfer to the Spanish CAA and re-register their aircraft. The reason: under JAA rules, apparently an FTO in a JAA country cannot depend from another JAA country's aviation authorities... In other words, they have to work under the supervision of the LOCAL CAA. Therefore the only "foreign" JAA FTOs approved by the British CAA will be found in non-JAA countries, i.e. USA, SA, Australia, etc.

I looked into it when I was in the same position, and I was told that all parts of a module have to be done in one JAA member state - that means you can't start ATPLs in Britain and then jump ship (you would have to start all over again - gasp!); however, you can do ATPLs in Bristol for instance, then CPL and/or Multi-engine and/or IR and/or MCC in Spain if you wish (or in another JAA member State for that matter). The only trouble, as mentioned, is regarding the licence transfer to the CAA: knowing them, it's not free! (then again, in France it's free, but three months down the line, it's still not done!)

Cheers

[FlyingForFun]

FougaMagister, I didn't know that. Does that mean that if you do your training at Jerez you will get a Spanish license???

FFF
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[FougaMagister]

Yes, FFF, that's right - also, they had to have their G-reg changed to EC-reg.
Check the thread on BAE Jerez...

Cheers

[Island Hopper]

Thanks Fouga for clarifying this point.

After much perseverence I got through to the CAA and they told me just what you have said above.

The fee for changing state of licence issue to the UK is £185, which I understand is the standard CPL issue fee.
Apparantly it's a very simple process - there's no real chance of not being able to transfer state of issue, however, it goes without saying that it will take the CAA over a month to process the application.
Perhaps someone reading pprune who has done their training in a JAA state and chaged state of issue could comment on the process..... any Jerez students out there?

Now another point has occured to me though.
If after doing the entire ATPL theory module in the UK, you want to take the CPL etc in Spain, would they require you to take their medical, and perhaps some other bits'n'bobs aswell (such as their ATPL theory), before issuing you with a Spanish CPL?

IH

[williamsf1]

So what we have now is a few general ideas floating around....the first being that :-

1) do the theory with one of the known distance learning schools (bristol or oxford for example) and medical

2) complete the CPL flight test (which should only be 5 hrs flying!) in the UK.

3) get issued with the JAR CPL from the UK CAA

4) then pop over the sunny spain for the ME/IR (at a far cheaper price!)

or is there a better way than this also??


The reason for the CPL in the UK, is because I recieved an email from one of the spanish FTO's today saying this was his advice for getting around the requirement for the "one state JAR issue"

He then went on to claim that once issued with the licence in the UK (CPL that is) you can add other things ( IR for example) to complete the ATPL.....

ideas??

[FougaMagister]

Yes, JAA rules are fairly logical when you think about it - the trouble is, COMPLETE harmonisation is still some way off.

I guess doing the CPL in Blighty then the IR in Spain should take care of the problem, the IR being "only" a rating added to the CPL... however, you would lose the cost advantage of Spain on the CPL, and you would need your CPL actually issued by the CAA before going to sunny Spain to do the IR - therefore, the IR licence issue would have to be paid for (whereas it's added to the CPL licence issue free of charge in Britain). I suppose the MEP rating in Spain would pose no problem, since then again, it's "only" a rating...

Wow! And I thought Air Law was complicated...

[Stratocaster]

Fouga,

With reference to what you said about an FTO moving to another JAA country (and therefore the need to be "re-approved" by the "foreign" authority), would you have, by any chance, the complete reference in JAR-FCL ? I'd like to read more about this...

I'm curious to know up to what degree of "delocalisation" an FTO can go before he has to switch from one CAA to another: where's the borderline ? When just one of the aircraft is based in the other country ? When the coffee-machine is moving ? When more than 50% of the training is done abroad ?

Thanks in advance !

[FougaMagister]

Sorry, Stratocaster, can't find the reference - but then again, JAR-FCL has never been my favorite read...

As I've mentioned, a school from a full JAA member State moving to another JAA State must then switch to that State's regulating authority. I guess the best is to ask Cash And Agro themselves (01293 573 700) if you are lucky enough to be put through in less than 20 minutes...

Cheers

[Island Hopper]

Ha! Cash And Agro

Haven't heard that one before.

I know Campaign (or Conspiricy) Against Aviation

Are there any others?

IH

[mad_jock]

Yes there are but usually they offend women.

Cash And Agro is the best one i have heard yet.

What I can't understand is why the people in the Medical are so pleasant and helpful. Yet in the FCL end of things so bloody canned and sound as if their moral is level zero.

"Please read LASORs"

"yes I have but it dosn't tell me what i need to know."

you can hear the cogs turn as they think o ****e thats all i have in front of me.

Eventally you get someone who can make a decsion. But you can never get it in writing.

MJ

[FougaMagister]

Yes, there are others; Pete Quinlan, ATPL instructor at Aviation Training Associates, also refers to them as "fawlty towers"...

Cheers

[Stratocaster]

Well, I found this in the Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.055:

"7. If an FTO wishes to make changes to an approved course or to its operations or training manual the approval of the Authority shall be obtained before the changes are implemented. FTOs need not advise the Authority of minor changes in day-to-day operations. Where any doubt exists as to whether a proposed change is minor, the Authority shall be consulted.

8. An FTO may make training arrangements with other training organisations or make use of alternative
base aerodromes as part of its overall training organisation, subject to the approval of the Authority."

It says nothing about registrations though...

[MadDogDriver]

Another thing that must be considered is that any document or certificate you get from a Spanish FTO must be translated into English! They only issue Spanish ones. Some schools that offer Integrated ATPL courses in English issue them in English any other course you get Spanish Certificates...which in the UK are not very handy!

[FougaMagister]

Mad Dog, what about Spanish FTOs doing modular courses in English? Is their paperwork in English o en Castellano?

Cheers

[LEVC]

I did my training in Airmed (English integrated course) and i know they do ATPL (Theory) modular courses and the price last year was around 9000 Euros and takes about 6 months of classes, there are no distance learning courses at Airmed.
What i don't know is if you can do them in english, as far as i know only the integrated can be done in English,
but there is a scotish guy working there called Allan (Operational Procedures ground instructor) and an English guy called Tim ( RTF ground instructor), you can call and ask for them, they are very friendly.
For the ME and IR modular courses i have no info, i haven't heard of anybody doing them at Airmed, but i can be wrong.
Hope it helps.