IR time Limit Confusion

[mintfavour]

With reference to my other thread 'ATPL theory to CPL Skills'.

It has been pointed out to me that you must complete the CPL and IR within 36 months of passing the first ATPL theory exam or else you lose your ATPL exam Credits.

My game plan was to complete the CPL skills then do an FI rating so that I could be a paid part time instructor while saveing up to do my IR. As I believed that the IR was a completely a seperate rating. But if the fact Fog-horn pointed out is true then I will have to change my game plan.

As He points out that you must also complete the IR rating (if you want one) within 36 months of passing the first ATPL theory exam.

This then brings up the question, Whats the point of doing your ATPL theory if you want to become an instructor only, when you may not want to complete an IR, and therefore your ATPL theory is going be discredited after 36 months anyway. And if you want to do an IR at a later date are they really going to make you sit all the exams again??


Please help me to clear up my confusion.

[Polar_stereographic]

mintflavour

Don't mean to get you down about this, but if you are confused now, start praying that the rumoured European replacement to JAR does not happen, as we will all be confused then.

Do you have JAR or National ATPL credits?

PS

[DiverDriver]

Mintflavour – I’ve just read this and the other thread and like you I was a little confused. My understanding was that you had 18 months to complete your ATPL theory from the date you pass your first exam. But more importantly you have 36 months from the date you pass your LAST exam to complete your CPL and IR training. I have just checked with my ground school and they have confirmed this to be correct. Maybe the link that Fog-horn gave is out of date ? (no disrespect Fog-horn). To be absolutely certain we need some one with an up to date copy of JAR FCL sub part J which I believe details ATPL theory validity. Any offers anyone !!!!

In addition some time ago (I can’t find the link) there was a thread that gave the impression that the 36 months from date of last exam rule applied to obtaining your first licence issue and that lets say you passed your CPL skill test and got your licence issued in the 36th month your ATPL credits would remain valid for a further period to enable you to get your IR. Sorry but I don’t know what the out come of this discussion was.


Finally if like me you would like to instruct but have chosen to go for the ATPL theory as opposed to the CPL theory (possibly due to the lack of ground school providers) there is no mandatory requirement for you to have an IR to instruct. The bottom line is that once you have passed the ATPL or CPL ground school you can do the FI rating and instruct provided its not for hire or reward. If you have your CPL then you can be paid to instruct. And lets say that whilst your building air time instructing you fail to obtain your IR in the allotted time all that will happen will be that you will you lose the ATPL credits and would have to re-sit the IR related parts of the ATPL ground school should you want to do the IR in the future. This would not affect your JAA CPL or FI ratings.

Well this is my understanding, does anyone know any different.

[mintfavour]

I have JAR PPL and will be starting a JAR ATPL theory in the next few months

Does this help?

[foghorn]

Diverdriver,

No offence taken, mate. The link I gave was to the JAA's own site where there is a full set of JARs. They do keep these vaguely up to date.

And lets say that whilst your building air time instructing you fail to obtain your IR in the allotted time all that will happen will be that you will you lose the ATPL credits and would have to re-sit the IR related parts of the ATPL ground school should you want to do the IR in the future.

That's true in theory. In practice you'd need to redo the full ATPL theory exams unless you are one of the few who is not after an airline job. You get 36 months to get both your CPL and IR, then the ATPLs are kept valid by keeping the IR valid. If you do not do the IR in the alloted 36 months you lose the ATPL credits. You are correct in saying that you could then get an IR by doing just the IR theory exams, however that would give you just a CPL/IR, not the frozen ATPL that the airlines want. For the frozen ATPL you would have to repeat the ATPL theory exams, wasting time and money.

Note that this is based upon my reading of the JARs, which are fairly (but by no means 100%) clear. The JAA and the JARS. (http://www.jaa.nl) The CAA may choose to interpret things differently so check with them.

mintflavour

I'll start from scratch. Sorry if this is over simplified but there are no doubt other people out there more confused than yourself.

To obtain a CPL you have to demonstrate knowledge to CPL or ATPL level.

To obtain an IR, you have to demonstrate knowledge to IR or ATPL level.

To obtain an ATPL, you have to demonstrate knowledge to ATPL level.

'Demonstrate knowledge' means complete the required course, pass the exams and keep those exam credits valid.

A 'frozen ATPL' is a CPL/IR holder who has demonstrated knowledge at ATPL level and is building towards the experience requirements for the full ATPL, hence it is 'frozen' until these requirements are met. The frozen ATPL is the basic requirement to be hired as a direct entry pilot.

By sitting the ATPL theory exams first before even getting your CPL, you are using those theory exams to cover the knowledge requirements for the CPL, IR, and, eventually, the ATPL. Lose these exam credits before you get any of these, and you have to re-demonstrate at least the level of knowledge requirement for the licence or rating you are undertaking.

You cannot lose a licence or rating you already have just by losing your theory credits.

See also my comments on the other thread regarding this.

cheers!
foggy.

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: foghorn ]

[mintfavour]

Thanks for your input Diver Driver + others.
If what you say still stands in this forever changing world.
Please could you or anyone tell me what parts/ how many exams have to be retaken if I take up an IR after the 36 months has expired, and also an indication of how much this would cost.

Thanks

[foghorn]

Looks like we posted at the same time.

foggy.

[Rob 747]

Let me try and resolve this for you!

Anwer to your questions (http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_gid24.pdf)

If the above Link works for you then look at the top of Page 7.

Hope this helps. :D

[DiverDriver]

Mintflavour I wasn't far off but the posts from Foggy and Rob have cleared things up cheers guys.(NB from the other thread I now recognise that it is in fact the CAA's interpretation of the rules that allows UK students 36 months from final pass - at least here's an example of the CAA trying to help - credit where credits due I say). Good news for yourself is that the 36 months start from your last pass in the UK. Incidentally how many hours do you have - I only ask because I do know of a potential cheeper route to the IR (loop hole closes mid 2002)if you have or are close to 600hrs.
Regards Diver.

[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: DiverDriver ]

[mintfavour]

Driver - Sorry got alongway to go to get to 600 hours,

Only got 112 hours with IMC, Night rating and a First Class Medical.

Currently building up more hours and hopefully start the ATPL distance at Bristol in the coming months, as I have got to move house and financials are running low at the moment and I havent even got to most expensive bit yet.

cheers for your help though any further hints or tips welcome in my current situation would be all apritiated

oops cant spell again, could pprune incorprate a spell checker in here.

Cheers again

[DiverDriver]

Mintflavour - your welcome, but don't get carried away thinking I'm that far ahead of you. In short I'm 33 married with 2 kids, house with a mortgage and a full time job hence going the modular route. Like you I'm PPL/IMC Night however I am close enough to 600hrs to consider the alternative route to the IR if I can get the ground school finished on time. Currently with Bristol GS and looking to do my first attempt at module 1 subjects in the December exam sitting. Keep going onward and upward eh... :D :D

[foghorn]

DiverDriver,

Do you have to have a UK PPL to get through your loophole?

foggy.

[DiverDriver]

foghorn - looks like your right. Check out the detail under appendix 3. http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_gid15.pdf (http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_gid15.pdf.)

I only know of this route as an instructor friend did his IR this way and got the IR attached to his PPL before applying for his CPL. His IR training cost him £3.5K !!!!

Check out the link and let me know what your interpretation is.

[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: DiverDriver ]

[foghorn]

DD,

You're right according to Appendix 3 of that GID - if you have a UK PPL or BCPL and > 700 hours TT (including some night, XC and IF requirements), you can do a non-approved IR which means the length of the course is at the discretion of the CFI.

For the benefit of others whose hopes may be up I say again: this is for UK licence holders only, not JAR licence holders.

cheers!
foggy.

[DiverDriver]

Foggy - you can take your test on 600hrs however the CAA won't issue the IR until you have 700hrs.

The problem I have is two fold:-
1)Can I start training before 600hrs provided I have 600hrs when I take the skills test.
And
2)if I passed my skills test before end June 2002 how long would I have to get to the magical 700hrs i.e. does the June 2002 end date actually mean an IR pass, 700 hrs and licence issued. If any one out there could take a look at the link I gave earlier and see what they think as this could be a viable option for me. Cheers DD :)