My RT is terrible...!

[monkeyslave]

Hi all,

Its my first post here but i'm not new to pprune, your posts have been helping me throughout the 2 years or so of training i've been doing for my PPL so first of all thankyou!
Anyway, back to the subject, i've done about 50hrs ppl training so far and i'll be doing my cross country qualifier within the next couple of weeks so I'm quite confident with my flying/navigation abilities but RT is, i think, letting me down.
I seem to get into a muddle when passing the details of my flight to ATC and also remembering every detail they give me.
My instructor has told me to prepare what i need to say and what information i should expect back from ATC but i still regulary make mistakes.
I've read both Trevor Thom and Jeremy Pratt but all this theory seems to go out the window for me as soon as I get up in the air and have to fly/navigate the plane.
Can you guys offer any advice, maybe you've had similar experiences when training?

Thanks in advance, monkey

[Aussie Andy]

G'day monkeyslave,

I was taught to use a mnemonic to help remember what info to pass on first contact with an ATC unit:

PHACER:

P - Position
H - Heading
A - Altitude
C - Conditions (i.e. Flight Rules, IFR or VFR - just say "VFR")
E - Enroute to ...
R - Request (e.g. "Flight Information Service please" or "Zone transit please")...

(To be fair, this is a bit overly verbose... I tend not to include Heading for example).

I don't use this now as I guess I just "know" what I want to thell them, i.e. WHO I am, WHERE I am and WHAT I want... but to start with when I just felt too overloaded to THINK at all (!) I foudn the mnemonic useful, and usually wrote it somewhere discretely on my PLOG and would run my finger down the list whilst saying it, so knew I wouldn't forget anything (although I sometimes did anyway)...

Hope this helps! Let us know how you get on...


Andy ;)

[flyingwysiwyg]

Hi Monkeyslave,

I felt the same at first when I was doing my PPL. Sounds like it's more nerves than lack of ability.

I found it helped to write down my calls at first and then fill in the gaps. (Height or altitude, Heading etc). Also don't be too afraid of making a mistake or leaving something out. If you do leave something out and its important, the nice man or lady on the other end of the radio will prompt you for it. If you don't have the information on the tip of your tongue or are busy doing something else like Aviating or Navigating ask him or her to Standby, and tell them when you can. Don't be scared to ask them to repeat instructions or questions. Say if you don't understand. I'm sure they'd much prefer to have you getting to your destination in one piece.

Personally, as soon as I stopped worrying about the r/t, my r/t got better.

Have you thought about getting a little handheld airband receiver and listening in on a few frequencies. Many people say this helps.

Don't worry and perhaps mention that your a student pilot or tyro when you make your initial call.

I think many of us have been daunted by r/t at first. I still write long calls down! Practice makes perfect! :ok:

Best Wishes,

FWyg

[AerBabe]

Congratulations on being completely normal.

There is no secret formula... we all cheat (erm, don't we?)... write it down!

In my kneeboard I have a small piece of paper with the order of which details to give when passing flight details etc. When I change frequency I look at it, run through it, then transmit the info (keeping the sheet in front of me). Bear in mind I can't afford to fly regularly... when I could I didn't need the sheet.

Likewise, when receiving information, write it down. You don't need every detail, write down the important bits.

For example: "Join runway 23 left hand, QFE 1003"

You write "23 L 1003"

Or make up a printed sheet on your PC with headings for important pieces of info, for example a box marked 'info' for ATIS, a box marked "QNH", one marked "registration" etc.

Most important thing to do is practise. Get together with another student and take it in turns being ATC and pilot. Once you know how they're likely to respond to you, you'll find it much easier to retain the information and relax when you're talking.

Good luck. :ok:

[Bodie]

Hi monkeyslave,

Nice name by the way.

Don't worry about RT - I was the same, it does take practice. For me, RT was one of the most challenging things about the PPL, and once 'fluent' is one of the most satisfying. To be able to converse like the big boys in a professional way is quite a buzz.

When I did the RT course, I was taught that the most important thing was to learn off by heart the whole message. If you can do this, then you can do anything. I'm sure you've read lots about this, but here is my routine when passing details to any ATS unit.

Callsign
A/c type
From
To
Via
Conditions (VFR/IFR)
Position
Altitude/FL
Pressure Setting
SQWARK

example.

G-ABCD
is a PA28
From Carlisle
to Blackpool
via Lancaster
VFR
Position 10 miles north of Ulverston
Altitude 3500ft
QNH 1010
Sqwarking 2354 Charlie

Thats it - if you remember this then your half way there. I spend 1-2hrs a day commuting, and used this time to say this over and over again until it was second nature.

When receiving information, you should learn to expect certain things at certain times. If approaching an airfield, expect to take the runway and pressure setting details. If requesting a FIS or RIS then expect to readback FIS/RIS, QNH and perhaps Sqwark

Always remember to read back information in the order it was passed to you, for example if passed Runway, QNH, QFE, then read it back in that order, not QNH, Runway then QFE etc etc.

Not sure what else to say. It might help to point out some of the mistakes you are making. Other than that, Good luck!

Bodie

[Evo]

I was taught Who you are, Where you are, What you want. I use

C - Callsign (G-PRNE...)
A - Aircraft (...is a PA-28...)
R - Route (...VFR from A to B...)
P - Position (...currently C...)
A - Altitude (...at 3000ft on 998mb...)
R - Request (...request FIS and MATZ crossing)

If they need any more they'll ask. Don't bother with things like heading (you've told them the route anyway), estimates or anything else. CAP413 goes way over the top with 'pass your message' IMHO.

Best advice is to practice. Think up situations, work out what you'd say.

[PilotOnline]

I echo AerBabe's comments on that, I still write down PACER on my kneeboard, just so if my mind goes blank I have something to fall back on. When I was doing my ppl training I would practice giving position reports, asking for departure clearance, zone transits etc whilst driving to and from the aerodrome till they became second nature. Just start talking to yourself more, you might look mad but it will help!!

[topcat450]

I have it written down too...and it's on a cheat-sheet poking out from the bottom of my kneeboard so I can always see it.

I also jot down the important bits when they tell me onto the kneeboard, in fact at the end of a flight I often have to deciper the relevant numbers etc and figure out which set of numbers were tacho times...which were real times...I don't think there's any magical answer...it just sort of improves as you get used to speaking to more & more people.

I also, when changing to a new frequency, try to listen for a few minutes and jot down the QFE, QNH etc that they give to others...then when they read it back, you already know what to expect and if it's different to whats written down you'll instantly notice

Hope it helps

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Another top tip - Don't rush. Whilst the air traffiker will be speaking at "ten to the dozen", that doesn't mean you have to. Remember, he/she has to write down most of what you are saying. Therefore, use this to your advantage, remain clear and concise with an appropriate pace. If you miss something out, the controller will subsequently ask you for the additional information. Also, write down any numbers you are given; I guarantee that, if you don't, you will forget something (RW, QFE etc).

[LowNSlow]

As AerBabe says, congrats on being normal. :ok:

As you've got 50 hours I hope you don't find the following condescending but I wish somebody had done it for me before my QXC ;). Anyway, I've found the following usually gets me through contact with ATC:

Me: "Luton Approach, this is G-ABCD"

Luton: "G-ABCD, pass your message."

Me: "G-ABCD is an Auster, inbound to Rush Green, currently overhead Hatfield at one thousand five hundred feet on 1012 (or whatever the QNH is cos I've been listening to Luton before making my call), requesting Zone entry."

Luton: "G-ABCD, cleared to enter controlled airspace, VFR, not above one thousand five hundred feet on 1012, call Rush Green in sight."

Me: "G-ABCD is cleared to enter controlled airspace, VFR, not above one thousand five hundred feet on 1012, call Rush Green in sight."

Me: "Luton, G-ABCD has Rush Green in sight, descending to land."

Luton: "G-ABCD, wind at Luton is 10knts at 320deg, bye."

Me: "Thanks for the wind, bye."


Enroute if passing an airfield within 5 miles or so (especially if I can hear they are busy) I'll give them a call something like:

Me: "Nowhere A/G, this is G-ABCD"

Nowhere A/G: "G-ABCD pass your message."

Me: "G-ABCD is an Auster, routing from 'somewhere' to 'somewhere else', I will be passing south abeam your field/overhead etc at 3,000' on 1012 (either the regional QNH or their field QNH/QFE that you've picked up by listening out before calling), is there any traffic to conflict."

Nowhere A/G: "Nothing known to conflict", or if you've inadvertantly picked a glider/para drop field to fly over, "there is intense traffic in our overhead, please stay clear you nerk".

Me: click, click on the PTT.

Me: "G-ABCD in the overhead"

Me: "G-ABCD clear of your field to the East/West etc."

Arriving usually goes something like:

Me: "Enstone, this is G-ABCD."

Enstone: "G-ABCD pass your message."

Me: "G-ABCD is an Auster in bound to you from the East, currently about 5 miles to run (or overhead a VRP if appropriate), could I have the airfield details please."

Enstone: "Runway 27 right hand (or whatever), QNH 1012, wind 260 at 10 knots, nothing to conflict."

Me: "27 right hand, 1012, I'll join downwind for the Southern grass (There are Northern and Southern grass runways each side of the main tarmac runway at Enstone), G-ABCD."

Enstone: "Nothing to conflict."

Me: "G-ABCD is downwind right hand for 27"

Me: "G-ABCD finals for 27 Southern grass."

Enstone: "Nothing to conflict" or possibly just a double click on the radio.

[drauk]

I think writing things down is not the solution, because when you're relatively inexperienced you've got your hands full with other things, like flying the plane. Watching a more experienced pilot seemingly have all the time in the world to do things always used to surprise me since I always seem to be in a rush.

I also think the mnemonics, like PHACER, aren't much help either - unless you want your call to come out like "P, position, 5 miles west of Brookman's Park, H, heading, 270 degrees, er, P, H, A, Altitude, 2000' on QNH 1012" etc. Of course, you know you'll sound daft saying the letters in between so you pause whilst you think them, then you feel bad because of the long gaps and it all just piles up. The trouble with writing down a script is that it doesn't allow for any deviations, like a variety of styles of position reports or missing out stuff that is obvious (flying from Stapleford inbound to Southend it'll be assumed you're flying East) or including stuff which isn't (heading when flying from Stapleford to Elstree but in a big clockwise circle around central London).

Instead my advice would be to practice, but not whilst paying 130 quid an hour to do so. If you've a friend with a PPL get them to take you flying and you do all the RT. Or do it sitting on the ground, with a simulated flight (if they know what they're doing). Lastly, for the response to the "pass your message" instruction you can do it on your own, anywhere. The only reason you struggle is because you've not done it enough. How hard do you find ringing a friend from the car and saying "Hi Steve, it's Fred. I'm just at Swiss Cottage, Golders Green in 10 minutes. Where shall I meet you?" which is basically a "pass your message" response.

[Kolibear]

I'll have to disagree there drauk, as a re-back to a controller is exactly what is means - its reading back the clearance you have written down.

If you get a landing clearance such as 'Runway in use is zero-two' and you repeat back 'runway zero-two' but write down 20 on your kneeboard, you'll be in trouble as 20 is the reciprocal of 02.

But if you get a clearance 'Runway in use is zero-two', you then write (incorrectly) 20 and then read back what you've written 'Runway Two-zero', then you will get corrected.

I can never remember mnemonics, so I just say Who I am, Where I am and What I want to do. If the controller wants to know anything else, he'll ask.

One of the most important R/T phrases is 'SAY AGAIN' - if you miss something, ask for a repeat.

Another handy tip is to listen for what other aircraft are being told, you can note those details and tick-check them when they are passed to you.

[Kingy]

Just to confuse you I was taught:

(Call sign) G-ABCD is a
T= Type - L-4 Cub..
R= Route - out of Glos for Duxford ..
P= Position - 3miles south abeam Banbury..
A= Altitude - 2000 ft on 1021..
C= Conditions - VMC..
E= Estimate - estimating north abeam Buckingham at 25..
R= Request - Reqest flight information service

I Found TRPACER easy to remember as it sounds like Tripacer -which is an aeroplane!

I almost always drop the victor mike bit - as Cubs don't fly IFR.

My trouble is that I almost never use the radio, and when I try I find either the bl**dy thing doesn't work, or I'm so surprised it does work that I totally screw up my message.:eek:

It's good to engage brain before opening mouth... gawd.. the times I've got to the estimate bit without having an estimate at all.. so it's all urms and arrhs while I try to dig myself out - yep I'm an idiot!

Anyway, my advice is:

A: rehearse what you are going to say in your head before you say it.
B: Write down the readback stuff IE activeRW/clearance/QNH etc
BEFORE you read it back - a few seconds reply lag is OK.
C: don't be afraid to say either 'stand by' of 'say again' - both are under used in my opinion..
D: Often you don't HAVE to talk to anyone 'G-XXXX is leaving frequency en-route ' is one of my favourte phrases and there is nothing wrong with a listening watch either..

Above all, don't be intimidated - the guy on the ground is there to help you make a safe flight and believe me he will have heard many, many screwed up RT messages from Students and qualified pilots alike, so.... RELAX.. try your best and have fun

:ok:

Kingy

[drauk]

Kolibear, I was talking about writing stuff down before you say it, not writing down a clearance that has been given to you. Sorry for not making that clear. Regardless, in theory there is nothing to say that you must write down a clearance that have been given to you that requires a read back. And in reality, how many pilots do this when flying VFR? On the basis of the delay that one hears between assigning a runway and it being confirmed I would imagine very few.

[AerBabe]

Isn't it illegal to operate the radio without an R/T licence? So getting a friend to take you up and doing the R/T probably isn't such a good idea, unless they're an instructor.

[strake]

I tend to agree with Drauk..trying to write all these things down just adds more hassle to what can be quite a difficult "art" when you first start out!

I tend to believe that the most important thing is to get the message across. In the real world I don't think the order matters that much.

I used to practice in the car to myself. Imagine a trip from your home airfield and just "talk" your side to "ATC" then practice again for real with a friendly club instructor.

When using the radio, speak slowly and lower your voice which imparts confidence and clarity...never, ever worry about asking ATC to repeat something you don't understand.

[Kingy]

Aerbabe

High flying Piranha ...! Ha, Ha, that's funny :D

I agree, but at 50hrs there is a good chance he has the R/T licence - I did mine quite early in the training and before the QXC - I was still rubbish though!

K

[drauk]

Aerbabe, technically you're right, I forgot that.

Kingy, I doubt s/he actually has an RT license - s/he may well have passed the written and practical exam, but almost certainly haven't applied for the license yet having not applied for the PPL yet.

[Kingy]

Drauk,

Good thinking batman - I didn't think of that. You are right.

Kingy (ever the doughnut := )

[Miss Bigglesworth]

For your own peace of mind, you could declare that you are a student to the controller when you do your qualifying x country (reference Evil J's thread not so long ago).

Try to relax. My r/t used to be ten times better when my instructor wasn't there with me, for a couple of reasons:

1. I figured that I had to just get on with it as there was no-one else to help (In the scheme of things, does it really matter if you miss anything out? If you miss anything vital, the controller will ask, it's not the end of the world)

2. The pressure to 'get it right' from my instructor disappeared and the intimidation factor (no matter how small) wasn't there anymore

And remember, if in doubt or unsure of anything, always ASK the controller. They prefer it that way!

I never memorised the CARPER or TRPACER thing, it never worked for me! Instead I try to think about what I would want to know if I was the controller, it sometimes helps. I still have a reminder of 'vital info' typed on my flight log for those times when I get tongue-tied)!

You basically just need to find your own system. When you're out flying next, listen to other people's r/t, you'll soon realise that no-one's perfect!

[Maxflyer]

Drauk,

When you fly your QXC, you are solo and without an RT license, yet you still carry out the RT function. I think this validates your original statement for training with a friend.

[flower]

I'm fluent in R/T being an ATCO (umm yes of course he he he)
and I still write everything down.

We are intimidating as we speak so quickly but trust me you want us to say it more slowly we can do.

Lots of good advice here , as everyone says practice practice practice, its how we learnt as ATCOs and yes we found it equally intimidating when we started.

Keep It Simple Stupid is the best way to do things , we do not need to know everything about your flight if we want more info we will ask for it , but position , height and flight conditions are very important to us.

Have you spoken of your concerns to your flight instructor they may be able to put you in touch with a local ATCO willing to help out with your R/T as some of us have been known to do.

Otherwise I would just say relax and anticipate the response you will get to your transmission.

[Thames]

Don't worry if your frined hasn't an RT licence. Just do the RT yourself and let them take control.

Simple!:ok:

2nd thoughts - don't try that at home kids!!

As an ATCO though, please just get yourself ready before you hit the switch - and of course listen out for a few seconds before you make your call - nowt worse than jumping in half way through a reply.

Write down the read-back-able items - on a knee pad preferably. NOT on the canopy in chinograph like someone did before me during my 15 (scarey) hours at CWL!

enjoy

[Miss Bigglesworth]

Mr B is also a controller and although in some ways I found his advice invaluable whilst training, in other ways it over-complicated things a little. I ended up confusing myself by having too much information from three different sources (controller + instructor + groundschool lecturer). In the end, the groundschool lecturer's advice along with the CAA handbook got me through the r/t oral exam, my instructor's advice got me through the skills test, and then Mr B's advice came in handy once I was through the training and ready to take on the world!

[Long-EC]

I read one of those dubious "scientists have found" statements somewhere (I think it was Nigel Everett's excellent Beyond PPL book but not sure) that the stress level for an average PPL student prior to making a radio call was higher than combat pilots going into battle.

I remember my instructor saying three things which might help here. First, the ATC people are there to help you, you are their reason for having a job. Second, you may annoy them intensely but to give a decent service to other aircraft, they need you to give them information. So you can give your position reports any way you like and take as much time as you need. And you can say "say again" as many times as you like. They might get annoyed but so what? The other thing is that, in many situations, if you don't like them you are perfectly entitled to cancel their service and switch them off.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't strive to get the calls right first time, both in terms of personal satisfaction and general safety. And the ATC people do a great job and are worth being nice to and even a FIS is worth having. But your RT stress levels will be lower if you remember they are there for you and you are in control. And if you make a rubbish RT call, laugh about it.

[Davidt]

1) Try playing pilots in the car on the way to work, bloke next to you at the lights may think your off your rocker , so what practice makes perfect.
2) Get an airband receiver listen in to the pros
3) Work out in advance what you want to say and what your likely to get in reply, its dead satisfying when bloke on the ground says exactly what you expected.
4) Two invalulable r/t phrases:
Stand by - means I have no idea what to say or where I am, hang on a mo whilst I work it out .and
Say again - means what the f**k did he say
5) Try to sound confident remember bullsh*t baffles brains, if you sound like your day job is driving jumbos you'll get better service from atc than if you sound like Frank Spencer.

Finally remember its for fun whilst flight safety is a serious business if like me you do it as a hobby relax and enjoy.

[Whirlybird]

As has been said, you're perfectly normal, but it does get easier. I was terrified of the radio. When I was a solo student I came back after flying one day, and an instructor said to me: "I heard you umming and ahing on the radio, and I said to my student: "That's an example of how NOT to talk on the radio!"

Well, apart from being tactless, he was WRONG. There is no right or wrong way to talk on the radio. If you're nervous, you're nervous. The ATCOs are there to help you, not the other way round. All the advice about writing things down is good, but you don't have to do it that way. As a helicopter pilot I can't; I don't have enough hands, :eek: Until very recently, I found there was no way I could remember a clearance and a squawk and probably something else too. I just repeated back what I could, and asked them to "say again" the rest. No-one ever seemed to mind, and if they did, tough.

Using the radio is about communication. If you're getting your point across, that's good enough. If you forget something, they can ask you. So try not to worry, and if that's impossible, try not to worry about the fact you're worried!

[tacpot]

Take courage - it is just a phase you are going through. I found the R/T difficult to cope with - the thought of the R/T practical test still brings me out in a cold sweat!

At the level you are at, you are still practising making standard calls. This is perfectly reasonable. There is nothing that says you MUST be confident making these calls before you can go off on your QXC. I suppose the point is that you should know what you are supposed to say at this point in your training; the QXC is just another opportunity to practise saying it, while also flying and navigating at the same time.

Only other bit of (facetious) advice I can offer is do your QCX on 23rd December like I did. Flying around Lincolnshire I should have been doing MATZ Penetrations all over the place, but on 23rd Dec, the RAF had all gone home for Christmas and Lincolnshire was shut!

[ratsarrse]

I deliberately chose East Midlands to do my training because I knew that I would be intimidated by R/T - I'm a masochist! :\ I don't even like telephones. I do a reasonable impression of sounding relaxed and confident on the radio, but I'm like a rabbit caught in headlights if I have to readback any kind of instruction that's longer than say five words. My brain just doesn't want to retain more than a few words at a time. I'm just glad that I made the effort to learn my phonetic alphabet before I started. I'm also glad that I have plenty of experience of making a complete arse of myself - so sounding like the clueless idiot that I am with lots of people listening isn't really all that bad. The biggest confidence booster for me is hearing other people who are worse at R/T than me - some of the airline pilots you hear aren't all that great, so there's hope for me yet.

[BEXIL160]

Lots of very good advice here and as one of those "mystical" Controller Chaps (and sometime PPL) here's my 2p worth...

We are ALL Human... honest! Can I suggest you arrange a visit to your local (or even not-so-local) ATC unit. You'll find they're all normal people and more than happy to explain what they do and how they do it. They'll also give you some first rate advice, and hopefully this will help your confidence.

All you need to do is give them a phone call and explain who you are and why you'd like to visit.

Good luck

Rgds BEX

[matspart3]

As an ATCO, I'm said this many times in various threads before.

1. Don't wait until you're in the aeroplane to practice your RT. I hear people everyday, wasting their money by using all their powers of concentration simply by trying to talk to me in a slightly technical language.

2. Learn the meanings of the standard words and phrases thoroughly and commit them to memory. Personally, I think the Manual of Air Traffic Services CAP493, which you can find on the CAA website has the most concise list.

3. Learn the list of items which require a MANDATORY readback.

4. Visit your local Tower. Put faces to the voices and see the 'mechanics' of what we do with the information that you give us.

5. Think before you open the mike. Not just about what you're going to say, but also about what you might hear back.

6. Relax! We're human too and we also make mistakes. Furthermore, we'll know if your a student or a stumbly PPL and most ATCO's will be gentle with you.

7. If in doubt, shout. I'd rather hear 'Say again' half a dozen times and know that you've got the right info. If you read something back incorrectly, it's our job to give it to you again...(and again and again, until you've got it right)

8. Remember, it's an Air Traffic SERVICE, of which you are the customer...don't be frightened to use it...your landing fees pay our wages! (This is probably the only industry, however, where the customer is NOT always right!! :D )

Email me if you'd like any further help, I'll be happy to oblige

[brockenspectre]

I would strongly recommend an airband radio - for (a) listening to the big-guys and practice beating them to the readback and (b) listening to those at "your" airfield and elsewhere.

Quite apart from liking to listen (OMG am I admitting this in public?) I found that my "sad bas*ard" radio was an invaluable tool in getting it right(er) when it came to my own RT.

At the time I was doing my PPL I was working as a negotiator of fairly complex contracts in banking - most of my role was on the telephone so the exchange of information/key data over a telephone was commonplace for me. A bonus as the transition to radio was, essentially, no biggie. I was, however, learning at an airfield which is only a radio service and at the time the owner of the airfield who ran the radio had his own wonderfully idiosyncratic way of working [RIP Chris Freeman] so this meant that when I came to speak with Thames Radar for the first time my heart was in my mouth. I have to say that having spent some time with my sad bas*ard radio, having listened out on frequency before making my call on the day, having my checklist for the call pre-printed and ready to rock-n-roll I had eliminated most of the uncertainty - all that was left was me broadcasting to the airwaves. My first call was clipped, efficient, seemingly spot-on (judging by the instructors reaction and the ATC response) and what I heard from ATC was what I expected (having listened out) BUT ..hehehe... having been so relieved at the exchange being so normal I totally forgot to reset QNH hehehehe

Key is practice. Understand what it is that ATC will expect of you, have your data ready at all times ... being in the air is a fabulous privilege and you are surrounded by an infrastructure designed to keep you safe but you have to play your part. The reality is that everyone involved in aviation wants it to be a successful "event" and are all there to help make it so!

:)

Happy landings!

[Saab Dastard]

MonkeySlave,

I feel for you - my R/T was without the WORST aspect of my flying - and I dreaded using the radio. You are not alone!

Lots of good advice already - here's my 2p

I did a course of R/T ground school given by a professional ATCO, to both prepare for the R/T test and to improve my R/T. Best investment I made - equivalent to an hour's flying.

I also did with what many others suggest - practice wherever you can - in your car, on the train (you don't have to say it out loud!).

Another thing I do is to look at my half mil chart some evenings and plot a flight, thinking through what I would say to whom - request for FIS, MATZ pen, zone transit, whatever.

A tip for when you are in the air - think about where you are when you want to talk to someone. Even consider orbiting a landmark (but don't lose sight of your track time) so that you are confident in giving your location. Takes some of the pressure off when you can say "Overhead thistown" instead of "I'm ehhh, about ...... 2 miles ehhhhh... SW of ehhhhm".

Oh yes, and have a pen & pad ready to note the ATC responses / clearances for readback.

Listening to "the professionals" on an airband receiver is useful to hear the flow, but not necessarily to hear the correct phraseology!

Anyway, all, none or some of the above have contributed to making me confident and competent enough to ask for (and receive) SVFR through the Heathrow zone on my first flight after getting my licence. I co**ed up several other things, mind you! :O

Good luck,

SD

[rodan]

Don't worry about being nervous or feeling overwhelmed by the radio, it happens to everyone, even us controllers when we are new to the game, or as a civvy controller when a millitary pilot asks you for something strange.

I think it's been said already, but my top tips for making dealing with ATC easier would be:

Use the phrases 'Standby' and 'Say Again'. They are not the sole possessions of the controller, pilots can say 'em too! :) The wrong response when you don't understand something is (my personal niggle) an extended silence.

Learn what is a mandatory readback. It's mandatory! If the controller is doing his/her job, they won't leave you alone until you've read it back if you just replied 'roger' first time.

The initial contact details seem to vary from person to person. I'm happy with the basics: 'XYZ Radar, this is G-ABCD (wait for 'pass yr message') G-CD is a PA28 out of Somefield, inbound to Otherfield, routing via (Navaid/turning point). Overhead Blahtown at 3000', requesting FIS.' If they want more, they'll ask for it.

If all else fails, use plain english. It's surprisingly effective :)

[GroundBound]

As an ex-controller and a current PPL I would say there are four simple things you need to say, when outside the circuit:

Who you are: - GABCD
what you are: - C150
where you are: - 5 miles SW of BigTown at 2500ft
what you want to do: request transit en route to Smalltown

That should get the ball rolling - be ready to write down any instructions - especially altitudes, QNH, Transponder codes, routing, runway etc. (have pen ready in hand and blank space on form). Just say back to ATC what they said to you (forget the wind though).

[DRJAD]

Lots and lots of good advice above, and I can't better it.

However, the advice about practising away from the aerodrome is, IMHO, very good. It certainly worked for me! (I'm not saying I get it all right, all the time now, but at least I'm not afraid to make the call, not unconfident that I will understand whatever info. I need from ATC and be able to read back accurately, and not unconfident enough to ask for clarification/repetition if I've missed something - I think that's a reasonable practical compromise.)

Good luck with the RT - and its right: it will suddently come good, and with it the confidence.

[monkeyslave]

I'm amazed with all the responses, thanks, and I'm feeling a lot more confident now that I know I'm not the only one who's brain has gone blank when told a whole garble of instructions from ATC!
I do sound like Frank Spencer, how did you know?

I've started talking to myself in the car and this is helping so I think what the general message coming across here is practice, practice and practice.
I am getting better but I think its just a confidence thing here. I start ok but if i make one mistake, more often than not i'll start getting muddled and more stressed and make more mistakes. My instructor is excellent but i feel it is probably getting frustrating for him!
I remember something my driving instructor said many years ago "believe in the force" ie have confidence in yourself and what your doing and stop doubting yourself, if you feel you are doing something or might do something wrong, then you will be more stressed and likely to do something wrong.

I have to admit that i have done a few solo cross country flights and these have gone really well, including the RT but this is because i'm alone and i don't have my instructor looking over my shoulder. When i'm with my instructor its very easy to think that if i miss something i can just ask him. When i'm solo I have to concentrate hard on the message or "Say again". I've noticed that if I miss something important, i'm always prompted or reminded by ATC anyway.

I think i just have to relax a little more, practice the RT on the ground, and prepare what i'm going to say before i say it in the air and be ready for instructions i'm likely to hear back.

If you see somebody talking to themselves at Kings Cross Thameslink in the evening, don't worry, it will probably be me! OOH Betty!

[Whirlybird]

One thing I forgot that helped me tremendously...

Sleap, which I flew from for a time as a newish PPL, was desperate for more A/G operators. I started training as one, though I never had time to complete it. But I did around 6 hours, most of it practising talking to aircraft, with an experienced guy on hand if I really couldn't cope. And after you've given your umpteenth aircraft the QFE, runway in use, and wind, and coped with every standard of RT from excellent to worse than you would have believed possible (and worse than you are!), and tried to remember just how many aircraft are in the circuit and where they all are....I guarantee you won't be scared of the radio any more! See if you can find an airfield that will let you help out, if only for an hour or two. It really really helps.

[Crossedcontrols]

monkeyslave,

I had to research an aviation product idea by conducting a survey at the North Weald airshow, the most common area that pilots gave as a weak point was RT. This was not just students.
So you are not alone.

On my QXC I wrote down the anticipated RT scripts with some blanks which were filled in just before Tx. One sheet for each leg. It worked well for me

My RT was better when I passed my PPL than it is now.

Use it or loose it

CC

PS I had my RT ticket issued before I had my PPL issued.

[Evil J]

Not much I can add to what has been said on a REALLY good thread. As an ATCO and PPL (who FYI can still make a tit of himself on the RT whether flying or controlling) I want to hear

Who, what,where, from where, to where what do you want.

ie GABCD PA38 from Nottingham to Leicester, 5 miles south of leicester one thousand four hundred feet request zone transit in the climb to altitude two thousand feet and FIS.

I know CAP 413 says it but giving your heading to a radar controller is very little use, we only see tracks on the screen so speaking personally don't bother.

My biggest bug bear is people not asking for what they want. They will give you details and then stop short of any request.

Alsio if you want zone transit include from where to where so we can judge what you are going to affect.

Any way must go, am due in approach!!

[bletchleytugie]

Monkeyslave - very little to add to all the advice thats been offered - except this. On the day when it all goes wrong and you have to use 121.5 , by all means try and be profficient, but if adds to the stress a simple "London/Scottish I'm lost" will quickly get the attention of our Guardian Angels in the D & D cell. Keep talking to yourself it pay dividends in the end.

[Sensible]

Remain calm. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate in that order. When communicating, listen for 3 or 4 seconds to make sure that you don't step on somebody elses transmission otherwise you own stress level will rise. Think what you are going to say before you press the transmit button. Always wear a knee pad to write down ATC instructions, especially useful to go back to the last frequency change if you noted the new one wrong and then read it back without the controller realising a wrong readback (yup, they are human too believe it or not). Communicate in your own time always, if you are about to enter controlled airspace without communicating, don't panic, just steer a new course to remain clear of controlled airspace. Remember that they are there for you and working for you.

[pmcadams]

I remember when I first did my RT I was absolutely useless, I probably shouldnt really have passed my RT exam!

But if you think about it, when it all does wrong, not that many people probably hear. I used to work at B&Q and because I worked on the checkouts I had to master the tanoy.

If I got it wrong between 100 and 500 people heard! After a bit of practice you soon picked it up, but once I could do it I looked forward to putting out the store closing calls, they were very long and there was alot to remember, but I always added closing and opening times for the following days, especially if it was a bank holiday.

Now I am still not happy with my RT but I am alot more confident, only 85hrs under my belt, espcially once I realised not that many people heard you make mistakes! But I even changed airfields to make things more difficult for myself, now based at Sleap I have a MATZ to deal with every time I fly!

The airband scanner is a useful tool if you have a line of sight to the ground station, I have a very nice and expensive ICOM, but because of where I live I dont get the ground side of the conversation, so I only listen to Airways frequencys, which generally demonstrate how not to do it, but it helps with my IMC.

But which ever way you do it, If I am learning something new I let my instructors deal with the radio, thats what you pay them for to help you learn! Once I have learnt it I then perform all ops with just supervision, it does work tho.

[IFollowRoads]

The vast majority of the good stuff has been written already, but one thing you might like for what to read back:

If it has "clear(ed)" in it, or numbers that aren't the wind, read it back.

So if you're "clear take off", "cleared into the zone" (contain clear(ed)) or "squawk 1234", "runway 27" "QNH 1013", "contact London 124.6" you read it back. You dont bother reading back "the wind 250 at 15 knots" (the numbers are the wind)

Its not 100% the definition, but "close enough for government work"

Good luck with the test

IFR

[GJB]

It's more or less been said before, but I find CARPACER very easy to remember.

C allsign
A ircraft type
R oute
P osition
A ltitude
C onditions
E stimate
R equest

If you get the chance to sit in the back, with a student/instructor on a cross country flight, this would be a good exercise as you can concentrate on listening to what ATC are requesting and how you would respond.

[Warped Factor]

If you don't have a transponder on board, like the aeroplane I usually fly, it can be worth slipping in a "negative squawk" in the initial call.

Might well save a longer unnecessary exchange a few seconds later.

WF.