What's the story @ Oxford??

[MorningGlory]

Does anyone have any idea why Oxford are also alienating customers?

They seem uninterested in people wanting to spend £1000's with them for their training.

I hope it doesn't go the way that PPSC did, but to stay in business they surely need to start with a bit of common courtesy when it comes to dealing with new customers, so rude! :confused:

[allenk]

yep, i notice the same thing reseptionist very unfriendly.

[smitty747]

rude to me also. just because i said i thought they were expencive and their accom was over priced.

cant wait to see how they will have to change when they notice more self sponcers cos the airlines wont fund anyone.

[EGDR]

With almost no sponsorships happening at the moment it looks like the majority of folk going to OATS will soon be the slef-sponsored so p*issing these people off is not a good business move.

I don't believe that OATS could go bust in this climate as they are a very large organisation but then again with this attitude in this climate who knows.

[smitty747]

the fact remains that they was rude. i dont care now if they do go broke. i will not suck up to them just cos they are one of few full time flying schools left. I will spend my money else where.

i would rather speak my mind, and those who disagree, i resect that they have their opinion.

[Sensible]

The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Trust me, no company can go on for long periods in negative profitability. A wise man would be looking at making customer service more friendly or at least going outto buy a dictionary if they don't know the meaning of the word!!

[Lucifer]

Doubt they'll go under: RAF is looking at it for potential ME training so the rumour goes.

[moggie]

Come to see us at Jerez. We are cheaper, our food and accommodation are cheaper and better and we like to be polite to people who wish to spend money with us!

[email protected]

However, I am surprised that you are not getting a more receptive response from OATS they are also normally very keen to get you to open your wallet. I would expect that any FTO would be gagging to get your money off you - the others will be as approachable as we are, I'm sure.

There WWW - does that redress the balance?

(edited to keep WWW happy!).

[ 28 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]

[Rusty Cessna]

I don't know if this is the place to ask this. But I seem to find that if you wish to do small segments of training, such as a twin rating, it is usually cheaper to go to a smaller school, as the big establishments only seem to offer cheaper rates with "bulk buy" training, anyone else find this?

Thanks,
Rusty.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

moggie - thats pretty blatent advertising. Re-read the rules of use that you signed please... ;)

I doubt OATS will go bust any time soon. Whether all the large FTO's will survive is a matter meriting some debate at this time though.

WWW

[BEagle]

moggie - is there a J-de-la-F website for BAeS? I could only find an Ozmate one.

[rolling circle]

All of the major schools have their good times and their bad times. I can well remember BAe losing contracts, including their share of the BA ab-initio contract, because of their pompous, customer-unfriendly attitude back in the mid-nineties, at the same time that Oxford was being officially credited by the CAA as setting the standards for the industry.

Now BAe appears to be in the ascendent and, I am reliably informed by an ex-colleague, Oxford did so badly in their last CAA inspection that they received only a three month provisional approval to allow them to get their act together.

Potential customers of OAT would be well advised to ask to see the current approval certificate and compare the issue and expiry dates.

[aztruck]

If its just trhe flying bits you're after then you might try Wycombe Air Centre. V good IR instruction and Cpl stuff.Nice people too and very well maintained A/C. Got me through and I enjoyed it!!
Shameless plug but what the hell(and I dont work for them ...honest)

[superfurryanimal]

Morning Glory,

Didn't you know??? That is the new and improved Oxford business plan.

Susprised this isn't a closed topic as there are so many unhappy present customers (never mind prospective customers) that I half expected the site to crash under the weight of replies from cheesed off students!

I can't help you with the why, but sorry to say this isn't anything new. Oxford have had a reputation for giving the sh***y end of the stick to self-improvers for many years, ensuring that their airline sponsored customers get preferential treatment over all others, despite self-improvers almost certainly paying far more for the same course as the airlines. Can't really blame the sponsored cadets themselves though, as it is down to the relationship between the airlines and Oxford rather than because the cadets demand such treatment (although I'm equally sure some try!!).

Perhaps now that Oxford can no longer rely on a steady income from the likes of BA (and there must surely be a limit to the number of Algerians the school can hope to recruit), the management might take a more enlightened view of the shoddy treatment given out to self-improvers. After all, most self-improvers only come to Oxford because that is where the airlines send (or rather SENT!) large numbers of students, and such business attracts other business.

Now the school is in the situation where word of mouth may be the determining factor for self-improvers, and the school is more reliant on such clients than ever. Yes, groundschool results are good, but are they so much better that the school can afford to charge so much money for a 2nd rate service? I don't think so. Neither do many students currently completing courses there, and if the present situation continues to slide, there is going to be hell to pay eventually.

Oxford badly needs to sort itself out. It does have some top class instructors, but the bungling way in which the school is run, and the atrocious attitude it holds towards its customers will undo all the good work that such people put in. If Oxford Aviation were in any other line of business, they would have gone under years ago, but the lack of serious competition and the determination of its students to learn to fly at all costs continue to keep it afloat. Such arrogance can only result in a major backlash eventually, and yes, the bigger they are, the harder they fall - look at M&S. They got cocky and ignored the desires of their customers, and quite rightly they got a good kick in the b***s for their troubles. M&S is a much larger and better-run outfit than Oxford will ever be, but it is still struggling a number of years later. Customers are smart and getting smarter, and Oxford cannot rely on its near monopoloy for ever!

If only the remainder of the school could be run with the ruthless efficiency of the sales and marketing department, and be afforded the same vast budget!!! Where else do you think Kilroy-Silk gets the money to finance that tan!!!!!

So come on Oxford, pull your finger out and give us the respect we deserve as paying customers, and stop treating us with contempt!!!!!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Tosh McCaber]

Pardon my ignorance- where does Kilroy - Silk come into the equation?

[mad_jock]

I must have been very lucky with my dealings with Oxford. The modular chaps have been perfectly pleasant about posting things round the world and the 2 week brush ups have been just the ticket to pass the exams.

I must admit i wouldn't fly with them because they are to expensive.

Another bit of information that came my way was that there are over 500 wannabies !!!! currently in the system modular at oxford and they are talking to the Russians about cadetships as well.

So there might not be to much English to be heard in the canteen after the Irish lads and BA cadets are finished. Which is another issue for self funders. Having to sit in a class with non native speakers is going to be hard going.

MJ

[eagerbeaver]

Tosh McCaber - go to Oxford and you will see exactly what bunny killer means.

Bunny Killer - i thought i was the only one!

Hilarious

Theres a lot of things wrong, there are a lot of things which are excellent. You pay big bucks so you should get a top notch product and in some areas it is lacking, but you show me something that is perfect - no such thing exists.

Stop knocking Oxford and knuckle down and get on with things. I was there and had a real rough time so i know!

[superfurryanimal]

Eagerbeaver,

Sorry to see you are obviously so keen to part with large sums of money for a 2nd rate product. Would you be so happy paying 50K for a Porsche that drove like a Lada? No, I didn't think so.

Oxford have the potential to be a top notch school, and this is what they advertise themselves as to potential customers. As such, they ought to make more of an effort to deliver the service they are so quick to promise to people at their open days. As I said before, they have some excellent people there, but the side is being let down by people who ought to be in control of the situation and who, either through apathy or lack of ability, cannot deliver what is promised.

Many of the students (past, present and future) have, or are working hard for their qualifications, and they are entitled to complain if they are unhappy with the service. Are you telling me that you wouldn't complain if you were unhappy with the behaviour of your flight crew? If so, you aren't fit to be in the air, let alone critisize others for their attitude.

Would you accept the manager of your local supermarket telling you to poke off and get on with your shopping next time you are dissatisfied with something? Of course you wouldn't - you would punch his lights out first, and then leave and never go there again. Oxford holds a near monopoly position and is abusing it. Nobody else runs a business this way, so why should Oxford be allowed to operate as an exception and get an easy ride?

Oxford is a commercial interest, and as such it relies upon the continued business of these students. It cannot continue to operate in the maner in which it has always done - the world changes quickly and all businesses need to recognise this and adapt to it equally quickly. If not, Oxford runs the risk of going into a long-term decline and ultimately out of business, especially if they are ever faced with a credible competitor.

I have no wish to see Oxford go out of business, but they should finally take their collective heads out of the sand and heed the Gypsy's warning. Until then, they will continue to receive negative criticism from many people, and this will not help improve Oxford's tarnished image. As Oxford themselves are so fond of quoting - "That's the way it is, get used to it!" :(

[G-SCUD]

Tosh

I assume 'Kilroy-Silk' is the salesman aka 'Slipery Bob', aka 'Forked Tongue Bob', aka etc, etc, when I worked at OATS (Before being invited to take part in their 'early retirement scheme...!). Take a very large pinch of NaCl...

I fairness, delivery guys (and gals) are generally first-rate (Ground and Flight Training).

[F900B]

'Slipery Bob'

Now thats a name i have not heard in a long time, is that the same sales guy that worked at SFT ( The European College of Aviation)when i was there.

And i rememeber the time when he was given that name Aka 'Slipery Bob' that was a good laugh. So he went from SFT to Oxford ? lol thats funny.

[QUERY]

Interested in the claims that Oxford enjoys near monopoly, has little competition etc.
Is this another case of customers who paid too much rationalising their decision?
I am sure that BAE, Cabair, SFT and anyone else who hasn't gone bust yet would claim to compete but is OATS superiority true or just more of their notorious marketing, which some people believe?

[BEagle]

As I've said elesewhere, why would anyone bother with a tatty little mud and gravel aerodrome with no ILS and where the aircraft are left out in the rain? As well as having to find somewhere to live in one of the most expensive parts of the UK?

Is it cold and foggy at Jerez today? Somehow I don't think so.......let's see - the 0700 METAR is giving 070/03, CAVOK, +15/+10. Whereas at Oxford....too small and insignificant to post a METAR - but nearby Brize is 260/04, 250m in fog, broken at 100ft, +4/+4, NOSIG!

Espana la mejor??

Sorry - no advertising

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[ 11 November 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Pop ]

[eagerbeaver]

bunnykiller - dont start saying things implying i am incompetent and should not be in the air, the fact of the matter is i am in the process of dealing with a few issues with OATS but getting hold of the right people let alone getting something done is very difficult.
Take your tired and boring ramblings elsewhere. The school is what you make of it at the end of the day like I keep saying. I had it as hard as its ever gonna get and I passed with a lot of hard work and diligence. Don't put people off, offer a reasonable argument and let them decide. Where else would you train if not Oxford? The impression I get is that many other FTO's in the UK are not as good as Oxford so why would you go there? money maybe?
Anyway i suggest you finish the course then start air your grievances.
You can always find good things in any situation, you just got to know where to look.

[QUERY]

Re.eagerbeaver:
Is this another case of customers who paid too much rationalising their decision?

[eagerbeaver]

whats that supposed to mean?

[Quidditch Captain]

If you want good/better service from Oxford deal directly with the Modular people rather than Sales/Marketing.
They return your calls, respond to emails, (and even take your money if you want to pay for something!), and make time for you if you turn up in person.

In general the excellent instruction seems to make up for other shortfalls. I'd rather be with the school who goes bust last.....

[mad_jock]

I would agree with CTM Dena is a star and never had a problem with any of the lads either.

MJ

[QUERY]

Do you really mean -what's that supposed to mean?
I mean if you don't know what I mean, then you have the problem not a query. Now do you understand what I mean?

[Tosh McCaber]

Eagerbeaver, Query,

This is a discussion forum, not a venue for attacking each other. Please don't bore the vast majority, and muddy the waters, with petty personal disputes here!

[QUERY]

Didn't/don't have any problem, with eagerbeaver (who?), but simply responded to a question from a someone who seemed like a sucker.

[Elizabeth II]

I'm with you AZTRUCK Wycombe Air Centre, really good.

[slim_slag]

Flying schools seem uninterested in people wanting to spend £1000's with them for their training.

Its funny how customer service (not) is handled in some of these swank (not) UK flying schools at these major (not) UK aerodromes.

Not to mention names of course, but..

When I'm at home in the UK I often get the urge to be up there on a nice sunny day and I've phoned these places with my 'back of the cornflake packet' FAA ATP (did it for a laugh, I don't fly for the airlines).
I call up these 'hot shot' operations (which are really pee-ant places if you compare them to what's available in other countries). Conversation goes.

Me: I've got this FAA ATP & I want to get checked out and get some instruction on local procedures, etc. Basically whatever it takes to for you to be happy to let me take your plane and fly around for an hour or so.

Them: FAA? OK, you've got over 100 hours, we can convert you very easily to a CAA licence.

Me: Thanks, but I'm not interested in CAA licence, too much paperwork, and I don't need it to fly day VFR in the UK - which is all I want. So I'm happy to pay you whatever it takes for you to be confident I'm safe. I'm not interested in conversion.

Them: Well, not sure about that. (Then some ask who the FAA is !!) Let me talk to the chief instructor and we will call you back. We can certainly convert you, you really want to do that. They don't teach you over there in the US like they do here, you know.

Two days later I have heard nothing, I call them back

Me: Hi, I called the other day about renting a plane. You said you would call back.

Them: Who are you again?

So I tell them the story. They say they will call back. I never hear from them again.

Now.

I call some small outfit with a couple of planes in the boonies. The phone is answered by the chief flying instructor, owner of the club, owner of the planes, and somebody who just loves to teach and fly. These guys will call you when the weather is what you want, when there is an opening for a plane you want, take your money with a smile. Let you fly around when they have checked you out. Unfortunately these places are in dire financial straights too and the first to go out of business, leaving the big boys (yeh, big) to get away with crappy service again.

Anyway, is it any wonder that so many people go to the US to learn to fly? Its not only money, its because too many clubs back home in the UK have employees with their heads so far up their back ends they cannot tell whether its sunny or cloudy outside.

[ 10 November 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]

[ajaz]

Well i have to put my 2 pence worth too.. I did really several times and the receptionist the way she carried on thought it was her own company and didnt give a damn in helping..Companys need customers especcially at this time and not to forget what type of image she is giving as if the comapny is already going down..Me personelly would tell her not to bother coming in on Monday. :) :p

[Dom Brennan]

Nothing wrong with criticism if and where it's due but, I can't be the only one weary of the tide of negativism directed not only towards Oxford but in other postings, also to near enough every other major training organisation at the moment - how deep and prolonged do we want the current downturn to be?

Things are tough out there at the moment and I can't commiserate enough with those that have lost jobs / money in the present environment.

I'm continuing with the studies. Where? Oxford. Why? Well, no organisation of Oxford's size can be expected to be wholly without fault but, I can only speak of my own experience and that is that so far, I have personally found Oxford to be every bit as good as the open day there 18 months back had led me to believe they would be.

The 8 first time passes in Phase One that I achieved by distance learning, was considerably better than that achieved by other colleagues who'd eventually ended up choosing the Oxford route after experiences elsewhere. And, as other postings have indicated, I too can only vouch for the excellence of the modular ground training team there. As anywhere, to a great extent, it's what you make of the opportunities and facilities available to you.

It can be no coincidence that the RAF have chosen to outsource some of their multi-engine / CPL training to Oxford or, that Boeing/Jeppesen decided to back Oxford's study materials for JAA ATPL purposes - they could have chosen elsewhere. Anywhere considered good enough for either of these organisations has to have something going for it.

I'm presently gearing up for the Phase Two exams there and looking forward to following with the CPL course in January.

Over a number of years, I've personally known and followed the fortunes of ten self-improvers. Did they have tough times? Yes. Were they all immediately successful in getting flying jobs? No - some waited in other jobs up to two years for an opening. Do they all have flying jobs now? Yes. Have any been made redundant by the current problems? To the best of my knowledge - no. Did they have a single attribute in common? Well, quite simply - in times of stress (and they had plenty of their own), they tended not to resort to mud flinging - and, they never gave up hope.

Criticism and caution where it's due but, credit too. I'd have no hesitation in recommending Oxford's Ground Courses and material to anybody - will have to save comment on the flying side until I have experienced it.

[Quidditch Captain]

Well said, Cap/1
I totally agree with you.
I sympathise with those who have problems with OATS, however a well aimed phone call/letter/email to those in charge is the right place to start - if they don't know about the problem, they can't fix it.