Groundschool

[PA-28 CLOUD SURFER]

Does any budding pilots out there have first hand knowledge of the groundschool courses at Bristol or bournemouth. any opinions of which is better. I am a pp with 48 hours and would like to start my groundschool for my fATPL. Any advice on schools?

Thanks

[FlyingForFun]

There are several schools at Bournemouth, and I believe that more than one of them offer residential groundschool courses, although I'm not certain on that.

Bristol, on the other hand, only offer a distance learning course.

There is a huge difference between a residential course and a distance learning course, and the first thing you need to do is decide which of these is most appropriate to your circumstances. Once you've figured that one out, find out about all of the schools which offer that type of course, and then pick out two or three to ask more questions about.

The fact that you're asking questions about schools which offer such different courses (plus a post you made on another thread) suggests to me that you've come up with this idea of where you're going to do your groundschool based on the fact that you like the location, without having done any research whatsoever. My apoligies if this is incorrect.

(But, for what it's worth, I studied at Bristol and if you are forced to go for distance learning, then they are, in my opinion, the best. If you search these forums you'll find plenty of positive comments about them, and barely a single negative comment. I have no first hand experience of any schools at Bournemouth.)

FFF
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[PA-28 CLOUD SURFER]

FFF

thanks for the prompt reply, i have in fact chosen the two flight schools as i have a house in Bristol and also know of it to be an excellent ground school having read many of the good comments on pprune. My parents live in bournemouth therefore seeing as i would like to try to save some money on renting a place or doing a residential course i would prefer to stay in one of these places. I seem to get the idea that a distance learning course is harder and takes longer to complete whereas the residential courses must offer support and lectures during the day.

did you find the distance learning particularly tough or was it alright?

If i decided to do a residential course in bournemouth do you know if they would let me live at home and commute the ten minutes into the school each day or is it obligatory to stay on campus?

much appreciated for anyadvice!

Surfer := :=

[Keith.Williams.]

PA 28,

If you wish to do a residential ATPL ground school course at Bournemouth you have two schools from which to choose. These are BCFT (which is frequently advertised on this site by Send Clowns) and EPTA. I manage the EPTA ground school and teach a number of subjects there.

Neither of these schools provides overnight accommodation, so there will be no problem with you living with your parents (subject of course to their approval!).

Both BCFT and EPTA are holding open days in the next few weeks (BCFT on 26 April and EPTA on 10 May). These are obviously intended to convince you to come and train with us. The principal problem with attending open days is that you will not be able to visit and compare both schools on the same day.

Personally I would recommend that you contact both schools and arrange to visit both on the same day, one in the morning and the other in the afternoon. In order to make an objective comparison it might be helpful to make a list of subjects that you wish to investigate. I would suggest the following as a starting point:

Facilities: You should take a good look around, particularly at the classrooms and training aids.

Course notes: This is clearly a difficult one to assess if you have not already seen those of other schools, but you should at least look at the general presentation, layout and amendment states. Each book should include an issue date so you can see how recently they have been updated.

First time pass rates: Do not accept the school's word for this, but insist on seeing the CAA issued statistics. The CAA issue these to all schools every month. The school might argue that they cannot show you them, because they include student names. If so, you should simply invite them to cover up the names when they show you the lists. Ask them to download the lists directly from their e-mail system so you know they have not been doctored.

Ask what happens if you fail any of the exams. Many schools simply charge you extra for further training. This, in my opinion, is totally unreasonable. Having paid once, you should expect to get the training that is necessary to enable you to pass the exams. Some schools wil permit you to sit in on lessons with other courses, but will provide nothing specifically designed for you. This is likely to be of little value unless the course with which you sit is close to the exams. Only one school that I am aware of will provide free retraining in the form of consolidation courses specifically for the small number of students who are taking resits.

Talk to existing students (in private): You can do this during the lunch break or coffee break. Make sure you choose which ones you talk to and ensure you are permitted to do so in private. This is the best way to get an unbiased view. If you attend an open day you might well meet some students, but these will have been selected by the school, so they will probably be the happiest ones.

Ask to sit in on a lesson. You probably wont be up to speed on the subject but you will at least get a feel for how the teaching is actually done. You will also see how the students and instructors get on.

Ask about payment methods and protection schemes. Do not pay large amounts up front and always use a credit card.

Do not visit the toilets (ours are pretty cramped at the moment but we are working on the problem).

[rotormad]

I'm doing distance learning with Bristol and must admit i find them very supportive and willing to give advice and guidance if and when needed. I would say, although i have no direct form of comparison, that DL is probably harder than Residential. I think this for severla reasons; firstly the obvious, support. You are in a classroom enviroment with others there to talk to, exchange ideas and so on, secondly you do not get distracted. i have found it very difficult to be able to get time where i can be left alone for long periods. This of course is down to individual circumstances, but if you are able to do residential then this problem is taken out of the equation.

I have two friends who fly for British Airways, both very switched on guys and they both say that they would find it alot harder doing the GS by DS just because its not in a classroom enviroment. Again people learn at different levels in differing surroundings.

Bottom line, i think if i was to do it again i would go residential. I think DL is for people who for family, work, social, economical commitments can not attend a 'full-time' course.

That's my ten cents worth, hope it's been of some use.

Rotormad

[JohnnyPharm]

There is a post further down here about a guy who wants to switch from Class to Distance because you only get taught in class and the real learning comes at night when he is sudying.

I can agree with this. When I was at Uni basically the lecture during the day only just cracked the surface of the topic, at night when studying (after having been to the student union and some student parties) was only really when you could learn the subject. So to me really DL would be great as I say it is at home that you really learn the material. You will not remember half of what is said in class let a lone learn it when the lecturer reads the information out once.

[oxford blue]

A good lecturer doesn't "read the information out once". Firstly, just taking lecture technique, he should give you a quick overview of what he's going to cover. Then he should give the main body of the lecture. Finally, he should summarise the important points in conclusion. Every lecture should have an introduction, a main body, and a conclusion. You should hear it 3 times. As my old RAF instructors used to say, when talking about lecture technique, "Tell 'em what your going to tell them, then tell them, then tell them that you've told them". It works, too.

Secondly, the instructor should be telling you more than just what is in the notes. He should have years of experience and he should be passing on that experience. He should make sure that every "exam point" in the notes is covered, but he should not follow the notes slavishly. A bit of practical experience, including a situation where he actually had to use that point, makes the lecture come alive. Sometimes the notes are wrong, or incomplete, or they are right but the JAA inteprets that particular point differently. The instructor can fill in these gaps. He should be treating each group of students as individuals, who bring different backgrounds to the learning experience, and different knowledge (including flying knowledge) which can be pooled. After the lecture, individuals can come up and see him for clarification of any points.

I work for an FTO which instructs both residential and distance learning students. I am full of admiration for the distance learning students who do well (and some of them do very well), because I think that it must be much harder for them.

[Alex Whittingham]

Whilst I agree with most of your post, OB, there's one part we differ on.
Sometimes the notes are wrong, or incomplete, or they are right but the JAA inteprets that particular point differently.
Everything should be in the notes, including the JAA interpretation. If they're wrong or incomplete they should be changed. A good instructor can bring a subject to life but the hard data should be written down.

[JohnnyPharm]

Yes you will pick up a few points in a lecture. The human brain is unable to retain all the information in one lecture. The hard graft is at home learning formulae, facts and figures by repeatedly going over and over and over them all again and again and again. There is no way you could pass the exam by just sitting in at the lectures and doing no study at all. So cut out the middle man and do the distance learning, because the constant reading and revision is where the learning comes from. Yes the lectures may help but you have to give up your job to take them.

By the way I have not started the ATPL but I think I will go the DL route, just my choice for the reasons above really. Bristol GS seems to get rave reviews in every post and it is DL only so my theory holds water maybe. I think I will be doing DL at Glasgow when the time is right. I will let you know what happens whether I was right or wrong.

Anyway enjoy the flying everyone.

J

[FlyingForFun]

Bristol GS seems to get rave reviews in every post I think I will be doing DL at Glasgow:confused: :confused: :confused:

Johnny, I can't follow the logic here, where you mention Bristol's reputation in one sentence, and say you will go to Glasgow in the next. It's not that Glasgow isn't good, or that you must go to Bristol. There are perfectly valid reasons for choosing Glasgow. But whatever your reasons for choosing Glasgow, you haven't mentioned them here.?.?.....

(Unless it's because you live in the area, of course. But since you're looking at Distance Learning, there is very little advantage in living near your school.)

FFF
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[JohnnyPharm]

What I mean is that Bristol gets rave reviews and good pass rates and is DL only, therefore I am demonstrating that DL can be equally effective as FT courses in getting you through the exam. The argument in the thread being that FT is better than DL or vice versa.

I would choose Glasgow because it is closer to my home yes and this DOES make a difference especially when it comes to the brush up:- I will have no travel expenses to eg Bristol and no accomodation costs for the 3 weeks as I will be staying at home. This could probably save me in the region of £500. Also staying at home during the exams must be better for studying compared to being holed up in a B&B in a strange town. Surely this must give better prep for the exam. Finally I like to support my local and national economy. I am not being controversial here but even when I go to the states for flying holidays I will always fly BA or Virgin even if AA, United etc are cheaper as I like to boost our flagging economies, equally by going to Glasgow I can keep the money in the Scottish economy if you see what I mean.

As I have said earlier I have not yet taken the plunge to do it yet, I really think it is just a little too early to predict an upturn esp with EZ announcing losses, so I am going to hedge my bets a little until consumer and passenger confidence increases a bit more.


Cheers

J

[FlyingForFun]

Ok, thanks J - most of your arguments make sense, although I think you've overestimated the cost of travel and accomodation (there are some very cheap but extremely good B+Bs which all DL schools send their students details of).

I'm one of those who gives "rave reviews" about Bristol on these forums. If you look at any of my posts on the subject, though, you'll see that I always suggest full-time if your personal circumstances allow, and I only recommend Bristol to those who can't make the financial or time commitment needed to study full time. Please don't take my comments out of context!

You also said: "Yes the lectures may help but you have to give up your job to take them." This is a very good reason for doing distance learning, in my opinion!

FFF
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[JohnnyPharm]

FFF

although I think you've overestimated the cost of travel and accomodation

21 nights accom @ £20= £420
Return EZ GLA-BRS =£100
Bus to & fro GS £3/day = £45

total = £565


These are conservative estimates as £20 in a B&B especially in a big city like Bristol I think i s a low estimate.

EZ fly Gla- Bristol. a return with them anywhere usually ends up around the £100 mark after taxes fees etc are added on. (No way would I sit on a bus, train or car for about 9 hours with 3 weeks hard slog and exam prep in front of me).

Unless B&B is really close to GS £3 return trip on a bus is a pretty low estimate.

Yes, there will be living expenses whether you live away or at home. At home I could go home to my beans on toast for about a £1 a day. in B&B it will be big macs and fries at a fiver a time every night.

Multiply this by two for Modules 1&2 and I could save well over a grand.

Forgot to add, I suppose there will be the odd obligatory pints with the rest of the course, suppose I would be doing that too in Glasgow but pints are a lot cheaper in Scotland lol.

What is the B&B rate in Bristol anyway?

Cheers

J

[silverknapper]

Now now girls don't start fighting over fiddly points.

Johnny I just made the same decision you did to go DL. I live in glasgow so it would have been easier to go there. However having researched it I heard from several sources that their reputation is very, very poor. Therefore I elected to go to bristol. Check out glasgow, look at their notes and then check bristol. Reckon on £15 a night b&b.

[Dusty_B]

There are a couple of very cheep B&Bs near BGS that will provide transport for you. I think they charge about £15 a night.

The cost of B&B and travel during your two week brush-up course really shouldn't stop you from going to a good school. An extra £5-£10 a day is far cheeper than doing re-sits over and over again...

[benhurr]

Well I did classroom for module 1 and distance with module 2. I got a higher average in module 2.

Also I think 2 weeks in a B&B is better than studying at home - in a B&B you have nothing else to do.

[FlyingForFun]

Hi Johnny,

This isn't aimed directly at you, since you have many valid reasons for choosing the school you've chosen. But I want to correct some of the prices you've listed for the benefit of others who read this thread.

Unfortunately, I can't remember the exact price of the place I stayed at Bristol. I think it was £10/night for mod 1, and went up to £12/night for mod 2. All of the people staying there was Bristol students, and there was plenty of car-sharing, so you can forget about the £3/day bus fare - if you don't have a car you'll get a lift easilly. National Express will sell you a return ticket from Glasgow to Bristol for less than £60, and it comes down even further if you're eligable for one of their concessionary fares or can get a special offer. (I know you said you don't want to sit on a bus for horus, Johnny, but I said this post wasn't for you!)

One of the advantages of distance learning, for many people (although not all - as I've said many times everyone has different requirements) is that the location of the school is not particularly important.

FFF
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[Hufty]

I did all my groundschool DL through Oxford but sat all the exams in Glasgow (just the way it turned out!). The facilities there are pretty good and I found that the small (ish) number of people in the exam room made for a quieter environment in which to sit the papers. In fact, for Flight Planning, I was the only person in the room!

The canteen at the Adelphi centre is good enough (and v.cheap to cater for the incumbent students)

[jamup]

I too recomend Glasgow facilities, I stayed there for 4 days to do my exams specially the accomdation where the Marine students are . its cheap too specially with Breakfast and dinner , so u only have to study and study .

and also end of the you just go away from your usual place for a while to a new location which gives you some free of mind and a nice scenary too in good old glasgow. I really enjoyed my time there since I am an overseas student and was lucky to go there eventhough Gatwick was my first choise to do the exams.

I heard There ATPl results good too since its been run by the people who didnot want to go to Spain with the BAE . less people more attantion and its cheap as well. So Glasgow Nautical s a good choice as well

[Fenrir]

I am very satisfied with Ground Training Services Ltd! Very good books, very good consolidation courses and only first time passes. But since it is the only school I have been to, I can not compare them to any other schools.

http://www.gtserv.co.uk/

[Chuffer Chadley]

Wahey, Fenrir!

That makes two of us. They're good AND cheap!

Mind you, I'll be able to tell EXACTLY how satisfied I am after the results come out in a week or two :eek:

Ciao!
CC

[JohnnyPharm]

£10-12 sounds very cheap to me, I am actually surprised at how reasonable it is in a city the size of Bristol. I really am taken aback.

I have had very good reports on Glasgow and I feel quite happy to do it there if and when the time comes. Yes I know Bristol is good but you can take a man out of Scotland, but you can't take Scotland out of a man!!!!!! FREEDOM!!!!!!!

Ooops sorry, just had my Mel Gibson head on there for a moment. lol

Good luck everyone wherever you choose, I'm sure if we all want it bad enough we will all get there whatever the route.

Cheers

Johnny-Boy