How do you get from A to B?

[OBK!]

Just a quick poll type thing (can't seem to find the poll button anymore). I'm just interested to know what you guys use these days to get from departure to destination.

I mainly use area Nav (RNAV)...or radio nav along with a cross check on the map every 10mins or so (or more frequently when there's loads of shaded areas around the bit I am flying!).

- Radio Navigation
- GPS
- Basic VFR Map Reading
- Full on PLOG, Timing, Dead Reckonin'

Which one are you!? :cool:

[DRJAD]

1 - Radio Navigation
2 - Full on PLOG, Timing, Dead Reckonin'
3 - Basic VFR Map Reading
4 - GPS

... in that order!

Definitely want to keep looking out of the windows, but also not happy unless I know exactly where I am!!!

DRJAD

[Aussie Andy]

Mixture of RNAV / radio NAV as well as plain old visual / landmarks etc. I think I prefer it when I can plan via VORs, and on forthcoming trip in an aircraft with a KNS-80 (http://www.seaerospace.com/king/kns80.htm) am planning to use the RNAV syntheitc waypoints to the full (no GPS in this a/c).

[FlyingForFun]

If I'm going outside the area I know, then usually Ded Reckoning with a full plog. Otherwise purely looking out the window.

The only navaid my aircraft has is a GPS which incorporates a not-very-good VOR receiver. I've only used it in anger on three occassions. Two times were when the vacuum pump was broken, and I used the moving map to confirm that I was heading in the right direction because I wasn't confident about compass turns.

The other one was when I was flying with another group member who wanted to play with it while I flew (we programmed in our route, and used the CDI to confirm we were on track - would take me ages to figure out how to do it again, and we only managed to do that because our turning point happened to already be in the database). Was bl00dy boring - won't bother doing that again. Looking out of the window and at a map is much more fun.

Only time I've ever really needed to use nav-aids was flying across the Californian dessert in 8 miles viz - nothing within 8 miles to confirm my location, so used VORs instead. Of course that's all changing now I'm doing my IMC rating - but I don't plan on changing the way I fly the Europa in VMC.

FFF
-------------

[OBK!]

FFF

I assume you always insist on about 10K's visibility when flying dead reckoning/using map? I was in the Seneca yesterday and all the radio nav equipment was a bit innacurate, the vis was bout 8K and I was finding it hard to put map to ground.....:oh:

[FlyingForFun]

Not at all, OBK.

If the viz is on the low side, simply fly a DR tack for a certain amount of time. Take a good look at your chart and decide in advance what features you're going to use to identify your position - line features are particularly handy since you'll definitely overfly them - but if you miss a feature, particularly in low viz, don't get stressed about it, just wait for the next one. It might also be worth routing slightly differently to ensure that you overfly easily-identifiable locations such as large towns, depending how confident you are, and how far off track this is going to take you.

Like I said, the only time I have been unable to find enough features to be happy was in the desert. And since I live too far from the desert to make a habit of flying there, I view that as the exception rather than the rule for my type of flying. I've flown a hundred miles or more in 5km viz without any trouble at all. If the viz really is that low, I'm generally more worried about it decreasing so that I have trouble maintaining straight+level and spotting traffic than I am about navigational problems - I would stay on the ground or near my home airfield unless I had confirmed reports that it was improving.

FFF
-----------

[Evo]

I'm with FFF on this one - plog or visual. I'll tune in a convenient navaid as a backup if there is one, but I'll only use it as a check of where I am, not for primary navigation.

[Kirstey]

The lessons in VOR/DME/ADF changed the way I fly! Still like to be able to pinpoint on a map where I am, and stil PLOG properly etc. But RNAV is my prefered choice.

However proper DR is soo satisfying! flew from EGKA to Sandown the other day, only a short flight but got there sans rnav, gps etc within a minute of my "guess" - sorry estimate!

[FNG]

I look out of the window, look at the map, and look at my watch. I have my headings and times on my knee and on my map, but rarely write anything down once in the air.

I'm not being deliberately luddite, but I still haven't found the time to learn how to get the best out of the GPS in my aircraft (it has no radio navaids), so I mostly ignore it (an occasional glance at the display to see if the EG code for an a nearby airfield is the one it should be). I know that I should be able to do wacky things with it, use it as a virtual VOR and so on, but the manual is bigger than the POH for the aeroplane. The POH has better jokes as well.

I have only used VORs once outside training and that was in a rented aircraft with a VOR in featureless northern France, where I found that radial cross cuts gave me a good fix.

I agree that DR is great fun when you get it right. I remember the first time I did it in a yacht, crossing the Straits of Gibraltar at night and finding the harbour. It's just as good in an aeroplane. Always pleasant to say "the airfield should be coming up...just now" and find that it is.

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

1. - Full on PLOG, Timing, Dead Reckoning -85%
2. - Basic VFR Map Reading - 10%
3. - Radio Navigation - 3%
4. - GPS - 2%

I am still amazed at how well dead reckoning actually works. And how quickly I get 'lost' without a decent PLOG on my knee.

Being a CAA PPL I have had no training in RNAV (I think JAA includes a bit?) but if my rented aircraft has a VOR I tend to play with it, but not use it for serious navigation (I don't know enough morse to check the ident, for example, but at least I know I don't know, if that makes sense!)

I keep a cheapo handheld GPS jobby in my flight bag, just in case, but on the couple of occasions I have chosen to switch it on (after deviating from PLOG for some reason and being 'temporarily unsure of position') I have sussed my location from the map before the GPS has acquired enough satelites (sp?) to be useful.

TG.

[bletchleytugie]

A track line, with half distance marked, full tanks and a watch. A GPS if going to a corner of an obscure farmers field. There is a certain amount of pride to be taken in DR - its a skill that I feel GPS is eroding.

[Flying Tooth Driller]

Ask my co-pilot?

:rolleyes:

[MLS-12D]

I learned VOR nav for my night and VFR-OTT ratings, but the airplanes I fly are considered unusually well-equipped if they have a functional DG, so usually it's pure pilotage for me.

Last year I used a GPS for the first time, while flying in Oz with GOANA (http://www.goana.com.au/) ... pretty slick, but once we were airborne I was forbidden by Mrs. MLS to touch any of the buttons, for fear that I would inadvertantly shut it down and the plane would fall out of the sky! ;)

[strake]

A current chart and complete trust in my two GPS units which, apparently, have MTBF figures of 2000hours...:eek:

[stiknruda]

I follow the line on the chart - distances, brgs, timings all on chart.

If I have never been there before I use quarter mil - if familiar with destination, half mil!

Folding and unfolding charts in a single seat, low stability toy is quite fun!

Stik

[Aussie Andy]

distances, brgs, timings all on chart. Yes, I've a friend who does it this way: looks really easy to do, but somehow I can never seem to write clearly enough, or pick the right colours, to stand out against the background map clutter!

And its OK on the laminated UK maps, but how do you manage this when using foreign maps which in my experience are generally paper based (France, the Jeppesen Maps, Australia...)

Andy

[FNG]

I bought a quarter mil chart once but found it a faff to use in practice. Too much info, and you get to the fold too quickly. My wife liked to look at it whilst I flew from the half mil. I assume that helicopters operating at lower levels would find the quarter mils useful.

I use the fine point overhead projector pens (wih my track line, notes, and a large wind arrow, all in green or blue). Chinagraphs rub off and a chinagraph track line is over a nautical mile wide. I used to stick on compass roses for diversions, but nowadays use the small rose around a VOR on the map to give me quick tracks for diversions.

On French charts I have used a pencil, which is not ideal as the track line is a bit hard to see at a glance. Next time I go I must invest in a high-tech coloured pencil.

[FlyingForFun]

Andy,

I asked this question when I was flying in the US. They said that the charts are so cheap that they use coloured pencils and rub the lines out - and once the charts start to tear or become unreadable, they buy new ones. So that's what I did. The chart I used the most lasted around a month.

As for 1/4 mil charts, never tried them over here. But again, in the US, Terminal charts are all 1/4 mil. Caused me to get lost a couple of times when I was on local flights, having not bothered to create a proper plan, "forgot" that I was working on a different scale and ended up having flown twice as far as I thought I had :rolleyes: Fortunately I never bust controlled airspace this way, although it would have been easy to do so. I guess it's just a case of what you're used to.

FFF
--------------

[Mike Cross]

No VOR or NDB kit so it's chart and permanent OHP pen. Do a PLOG, mark off 6 minute markers on the chart. Mark the wind speed and direction on the chart near to my track in case I need to divert.

Heading and stopwatch.

Backup is a handheld GPS on a flexi-mount with a route pre-programmed into it. Monitor actual against intended track on this and use it to identify my position on the chart. If it dies on me I know where I am and can carry on by eyeball.

Works for me.

Mike

[knobbygb]

1) Draw lines on chart and write-up a full PLOG as per training
2) Tune in a VOR/NDB and use that instead
3) Feature crawl (not necessarily along the line I drew on the map, but always aware where it is if needed).

I know feature-crawling isn't the 'correct' way to do it. Accurate dead-reckoning nav must be very satisfying - just looking out the window after X minutes and seeing exactly what one expects, but when unfamiliar with the area, I want to see and identify everything I pass over so that if/when I have to turn around, I know exactly what I'm likely to see on the way home. I get very uneasy if I don't know EXACTLY where I am all the time, even if I'm sure I'm on track. I suppose that's why I like the VOR/DME combination.

[stiknruda]

And its OK on the laminated UK maps, but how do you manage this when using foreign maps which in my experience are generally paper based (France, the Jeppesen Maps, Australia...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When flying in Africa and France, I buy the charts then I laminate them!

On the UK charts I too use OHP pens and I also write down a/g, ATC frequencies of aerodromes near track and diversionary fields.

If I have time/facilities - I then colour photocopy the route from the chart. I can then stuff the chart down the side of the cockpit and work from a series of A4 pages - much easier than playing trainee-origami expert in a Pitts!

My little aeroplane only has a compass and a handheld GPS which I only use to confirm where I am and check groundspeed.

My six times table and 3 times table are quite good so calculating waypoint eta's from a refreshed groundspeed normally doesn't cause me too many probs:(

One day I'll have an aeroplane that has enough space to operate a whizz wheel, unfold a map and will re-learn to use VOR/DME/ADF/Loran/TACAN, etc
:confused: :confused:



Stik

[Kingy]

I mark the route on my 1/2 mil with perminent marker (sharpie)and put on my 10nm waypoints and maybe some obvious others like a motorway or disused if they are bang on track. Then write the actual time abeam above the track line and my estimate for the next below - it seems to work quite well.

Another little trick if the course takes you over a good feature within a few miles of the field is to climb and depart overhead, fly straight to the feature and note your compass heading. This does two things.. first, it gives you a 'head start' on your first correction and secondly, it leaves you less at the mercy of a wildly inaccurate compass (been there..:eek: )

I also have 'the world's oldest GPS' which I have been known to use, but I find it much harder to follow the 'CDI' indicator than simply fly a compass heading and it's easy to let your lookout suffer.

I agree with Stik about open cockpits. I ferried my new Sky Scooter home on Monday (pirep to follow;)), shortly after take off I realised there was no way I could even think about unfolding a map because it would be gone in an instant. Luckily I was flying in formation with my chum in the Cub, so I tucked in tight and let him nav..:D

Kingy

[Tinstaafl]

Don't like laminated charts. More cumbersome & you have to use a special marker to write on the bloody things.

Give me paper charts any day. Use a soft eg 2B pencil & it'll last for years.

[IO540-C4D5D]

I do navigation as if it was IFR always

1. Draw the route on the chart, picking up VOR radials whenever possible
2. Write up the plog (mag tracks only, no wind correction) - I might use Navbox to generate the plog as it's easier to pick up handy GPS waypoints like airways intersections etc
3. Program the plog into the panel mounted IFR GPS and verify that it displays the correct route on the GPS map
4. Call the other end to make sure there isn't anything I particularly need to know about
5. Get weather etc, check notams for entire route (Avbrief.com)
6. Fly it

During flight, I track the GPS track (autopilot en-route usually driven by the GPS) using the HSI, and have the RMI showing the current VOR radial as a constant check. So, GPS as primary nav with VOR/DME as a concurrent check. Little or no visual navigation unless doing a sightseeing trip for/with other people.

[OBK!]

IO540

I suppose I do things rather like yourself. I use Jep Flitestar to plot route and use RNAV (When in a KNS80 equipped Aircraft..i.e NOT the seneca!) to feed the HSI..which feeds the Autopilot roll mode (in the archer). But I am going to try and not neglect visual navigation as much as I used to because when all else fails (...the other day) its the only thing you have!

fair winds
obk

[stiknruda]

I have no problems with OBK or Injected Opposed big Lyc's method for navigation - in fact many years ago when I regularly flew much bigger aeroplanes than I currently do, it was the method that I employed.

My only concerrn is that so much time is spent head in cockpit that it is easy to fail to keep a good lookout.

I am not for one second suggesting that OB or IO540 do not keep a good look out.

Stik

[Flyin'Dutch']

GPS

Have to get lost yet.

FD

(Take it that all of you use leeches for a bit of a fever and tealeaves to forecast the weather)

[OBK!]

stiknruda,

I actually find I obtain a far better look out when I know exactly where I am by just looking at the GPS/RNAV....rather than spending time looking on the ground and worrying about position fixes and how to get back on track....and like I said, I sometimes use rol mode linkup for the autopilot....spares more concentration for lookout aswell.

[drauk]

OBK makes a good point that I've been thinking about for a while. If (an if not to be sneezed at mind you) your GPS is correctly preprogrammed with your route then using it for navigation means you can likely spend more time with your eyes outside (looking at the sky where the traffic might be, rather than the ground) than with any other method of navigation.

[BEagle]

For day VFR:

1. Draw line on nice laminated CAA chart in chinagraph.

2. Make sure the line doesn't bong any restricted airspace - or get too close to it for comfort. If it does, include a few turning points to keep clear!

3. Back up route on GPS with 'dtk', 'eta' and 'gs' as the data fields.

4. Apply basic MDR to convert tracks into headings.

5. Fly along looking out of window with the odd peek at the GPS CDI bar if the viz gets a bit dunkel. Otherwise it's basic visual navigation, backed up by the GPS giving nice warm confirmation of basic techniques.

6. NB the odd VOR/DME cross-check and preset the OBS on both VOR displays accordingly.

7. As a last resort, make sure that the ADF is tuned to something useful!

8. Remember that it's supposed to be for FUN!!

[IO540-C4D5D]

stiknruda / drauk

That's exactly it, with the track/altitude all set up one's hands are free for keeping a good lookout, for traffic, obvious landmarks (I think the #1 reason for getting lost with visual nav is that many landmarks look similar), engine instrumentation... even doing the radio.

For a total electrical failure I carry a handheld transceiver/GPS. Not a lot of chance of losing the electrics and the USA switching off GPS :O