Flybe to Buy Q400

[kuningan]

From todays Sunday Times:

FLYBE, the regional airline formerly known as British European, is this week expected to place a $700m (£445m) aircraft order with Bombardier, the Canadian industrial conglomerate. The purchase is likely to be the largest order by a British airline this year, with Flybe expected to take up to 18 Q400 planes from Bombardier.

Where do they get the money from?

[dontdoit]

Part trade-in of owned 146's & the company is also cash-rich from £££ compensation agreement from cancellation of RJX order. Heard a strong rumour they're going to an all-turboprop operation, but will have the lowest average fleet age of any European airline.

[bean]

Jim French was on record in an interview with Airliner World magazine saying ideal fleet size would be-if i remember corrctly-twelve to fifteen 146's & 20 Q400's. I suspect the larger 146's will be around on higher density routes for a while yet

[Konkordski]

The Sunday Times is very slow - the professional aviation press had this deal pinned down a week ago.

[Skunkworks]

With the introduction of the Q400 I have heard that they will change to:

FLYmayBE.


(bad one, I know...) ;)

[Saab 2000 Driver]

700 Millions for a bunch of turbo props ?!?!?! :eek:

Why not get Saab 2000´s ? ;) Sure, the Saab 2000 is a bit smaller then the Q400, but the speed, range and comfort level is about the same.

Maybe Swiss will have some nice ones for sale in the near future ! :{

[Artificial Horizon]

They have choosen to go down this route because of the economics of the Q400. Over the same route as a 146 of say 1 hours flying time and a passenger load of 75% the Q400 will take around 7 minutes longer but will consume 50% less fuel!!

Now the only problem is the reliability of the Q400, if they can sort out those problems then they will have a very competitive service that they can offer.

[surely not]

But will passengers prefer turboprops to jets? It doesn't matter a fig if the accountants are happy if the passengers are not.

[Avman]

Exactly. Are todays' pax happy to spend 60+ mins in a turboprop - especially if the competition operate jets? Low fares and no-frills may work on jets. But with turboprops.........., I'm not too sure.

[DAVROS]

With the new base out of southampton, surely flybe cant expect their pax to travel to milan etc on a turboprop. They have had some humerous press saying "Q400 the new generation jet"!! Who do they think they are kidding?? The Q400 may be a great (but unreliable) turboprop, but pax usually see a prop driven aircraft as something from WW11!!!!

[Artificial Horizon]

No the Q400's will not be used on longer routes like Southampton to Milan, FlyBe are retaining the 146's for these longer routes. The new Q400's are going to add to the dash-8 fleet numbers as well as replacing all of the 200 and 300 dash-8's that are on the fleet now.

[owc]

Turboprop v Jet

For instance on the Bristol - Belfast route, I know which I prefer 45 mins by easy 737, or 1hour 15 by Flybe Turboprop, answer jet everytime, quicker more comfortable etc.

[agcat]

.....And use the 30 minutes saved travelling by road from BFS to Belfast City centre Saving £££!!!.....
Mind you having recently bought an Eazyjet tkt LGW-EDI at £126 one way who said they are ' low cost/fare'????
Carry on flybe.:ok:

[RAFAT]

Artificial Horizon - The 400 is operating Southampton - Milan now, as well as Birmingham - Milan, and with virtually full loads. The pax are generally very happy.

OWC - The 400 does not currently operate Bristol - Belfast, you can expect 50-55 mins when it does.

[Fullback]

Babydoc.... No such route LGW-EDI. Closest server to EDI would be BHX and agcat's already moaned about the driving side of things (BHD/BFS)!!!

Sure there's always this issue with jet versus prop... but at the end of the day people are looking for cheap and easy ways to get away. New routes from/to new places. The initial shock of seeing the aircraft is soon forgotten about and the last time I looked all aircraft look roughly the same on the inside.

[snooze_ya_lose]

Well they may be very happy, but they would be a lot happier on a jet, even a 146. The Q400 is anything but quiet, it vibrates and the noise it does make is an annoying turboprop throb that is far more intrusive than the sibilant sound a jet (any jet) makes.

The Q400 might be cheap to run, but that is its only attribute. The surveys that are done to establish customer satisfaction are very easy to manipulate- If I want to go to Milan, a turboprop is better than nothing, so of course I will be happy.

The Q400 might be OK for short routes, but it is a nightmare for sectors over an hour (I've done a few on it). Hopefully an over-concentration on a turboprop that nobody else wants will not turn out to be a big mistake...

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

Anyone hear about the deal involving ex Aer Lingus 146's, obviously its off the cards now???!??

[Smokie]

Snooze.

Why are sectors over an hour a "Night Mare" ?
Exactly how many sectors have you done ?








..who shows bright lights and wants to know.. ?

[Whispering Giant]

Silver_tongued_cavalier - rumour has it that the Aer Lingus 146's are still being looked at - as well as a couple of other operators including one that's just been taken over and had nice yellow aircraft :ok:
Also hear rumour that a couple of National jet Italia a/c that have been in storage may be joining the fleet in the very near future..:D :D

[Wycombe]

Don't BAE still have a few unsold (new) ARJ's?

Pity BE couldn't have wrapped up a deal for those as part of the RJX cancellation compensation (presuming, maybe in ignorance, that fleet commonality wouldn't be too much of an issue??)

Still, as has been said, plenty of 146's on the market at the mo.

[GK430]

There are a few Ansett and Ansett N.Z. 146's still parked up at Tullamarine and Essendon too.

[spagiola]

So, was the order placed?

There's nothing on either the Flybe or Bombardier sites.

[Stall Inducer]

Rumour has it they want to change to an all Turbo prop fleet so they can re brand as 'Easyprop' :D

[Wycombe]

Slightly off topic, but a check in Galileo shows that BE are going to operate SOU-IBZ as an overnighter from the end of June, with a 3.5hr t/a in IBZ!! (presumably due to SOU's opening hours).

All of the new routes from SOU (except JER,BGY) are down as 142 or 143, so they must be getting some "new" frames from somewhere, or closing other routes.

[Oscar Duece]

Where are they getting the money from ? From the hidden charges!!!

Just booked a late May flight for 2 bods to Guernsey. £ 44-00 each pay p/p, plus tax. Great I thought.

Then on the final bill they have added £ 57-00 for tax (£20-00) and 'other surcharges'.
I just hate companies that try to hide things. These are fixed costs and should be build into the advertised price, not just to add to the bottom line.

If I buy a can of beans form Tesco, I don;t want to get to the till and be told it's 10p for the beans 1.75 p for tax and 3p for a can security surcharge.

[wing_nut1]

Well im based at egns for FlyBe as a SLF agent...and from what i have heard from my boss the Q400 costs the same to run as the small 30 seater dash?!?! (think its somewhere around 30:cool: )...i personally cant work out how a huge over stretched dash can cost the same but you never know?!

They are nice planes inside and comes with a very posh glass cokpit! (quite stuffed if they is a short circuit!)

The only bad design about the Q400 is the back hold door...one wrong move and then it comes off and takes 4 hours to put abck in!!!

[Buster the Bear]

My info says that they are negotiating for a LARGE (15-20) number of CRJ 700/900's. No mention to me of Q400's though!

[carlos vandango]

Yeah , sunny Jim has been seen up at waterworld too. Lookin to buy a couple of concordes to do EXT-JFK (via Bergamo);)

[snooze_ya_lose]

It seems that the extra airframes are being robbed from other bases (ie EDI and LGW), bit sad for the crews that now have to shift base or type. Who in their right mind would want a Q400 type rating? Surely the most worthless type rating in the world (except for maybe Concorde...)

Feel sorry for the crews that offered to go to SOU, only to get shafted with an overnight IBZ. I wonder if the crew will get a HOTAC for the split... nah, of course not.

wing_nut1

The cost of running the lesser Dash 8's is considerably more (as they carry so many less pax with only a slightly lower cost per hour).

Oscar Duece

If the cost is clearly stated as "plus tax", what exactly is hidden? I think you will find that all the relevant charges are clearly laid out on the website.

BTW how much is the next cheapest ticket to GCI? Thought so.

[rumflier]

FlyBE. places record US$818 million contract
for Bombardier Q400 aircraft

FlyBE. today signed a record order with Bombardier Aerospace of Canada,
worth $818 million. The contract specifies 17 firm orders and 20 options
for delivery from June 2003 to June 2006. The 20 options can be exercised
until 2008. This contract is the largest aircraft deal worldwide so far
this year.

This important strategic decision by FlyBE., sets the course for its
long-term fleet replacement and enables it to reinforce its position as the
UK's number one regional low fares airline. The new Q400s, which join an
existing four in the fleet, will replace seven smaller Dash 8s and four
Bombardier Regional Jets. These aircraft will leave the fleet
simultaneously with the arrival of the new aircraft.

Four Q400s will be accepted in 2003 with the first arriving in June. Eight
Q400s will follow in 2004; two in 2005 and three in 2006. It is planned
that three of the new aircraft will be based at Southampton, FlyBE.'s newest
hub, providing the possibility of route expansion or increase of capacity on
existing routes.

The Q400, which combines high-speed performance and low operating costs on a
par with the Boeing 737, will enable FlyBE. to compete effectively in the
regional low fares sector. Over the past 12 months, the airline has
successfully repositioned itself as the leading low fare regional airline,
serving 17 regional airports throughout the UK and from this summer, 20
international destinations.

FlyBE. will operate flights to 12 destinations from Southampton this
summer - Belfast City, Dublin, Jersey, Guernsey, Geneva, Milan Bergamo,
Murcia, Malaga, Toulouse, Alicante, Ibiza and Bergerac.

"The Q400 is delivering fantastically low operating costs at FlyBE., a
benefit which we are passing directly on to our passengers with low fares as
we expand our European network," said Jim French, managing director of
FlyBE. "We announced last year our intention to streamline our fleet to two
aircraft types. With the announcement today to standardize on the Q400, we
are well on track as we rebalance our network with a complementary mix of
business and leisure routes."

Mr. French added, "The jet performance of the Q400 is a major selling point,
together with its exceptionally quiet and comfortable cabin. Passenger
reaction has been extremely positive."

FlyBE. introduced the Q400 in December 2001 on its flights from Birmingham
to Scotland. The aircraft combines exceptional cabin comfort with the speed
and technology of a jet, but at turboprop costs. The Q400s are the world's
most environmentally friendly aircraft, in addition to reduced fuel burn
they have the lowest noise foot print of any comparable passenger airliner,
with noise levels at a fraction of those generated by comparable Boeing
aircraft.

The Q400 also boasts an extremely quiet and low vibration cabin environment
thanks to its superb Noise and Vibration Suppression (NVS) system. In
addition, the Q400 gives FlyBE. an edge with its special operating
characteristics, enabling the airline to utilise the aircraft on shorter
runways such as London City and Belfast City Airports, without any payload
restrictions.

FlyBE., will carry more than 3.5 million passengers on its network this year
with its BAe 146 and Bombardier fleet. The airline has a workforce of
1,000, plus 500 at sister organization British European Aviation Services,
based in Exeter. FlyBE.'s principal operating bases are at Southampton,
Birmingham, Belfast and the Channel Islands. FlyBE. has a 25-year history,
from a small commuter airline providing scheduled services between mainland
UK and the Channel Islands in the mid 1980s, to Europe's largest independent
regional airline.

[foundation digger]

Q400.
Turboprops have negative passenger appeal.
This is a bad decision.
Competition management will not loose any sleep over FlyBE.

[rolandpull]

So, I take it that this order will initially see the retirement of the older 'clockwork' Dash a/c as the new Q's arrive, followed by a fleet expansion in the years to come?

[Jobs-a-Goodun]

It would be accurate to say that props do have a negative passenger appeal but convenience is more important for most people. If you can fly out of your local airport for the same price then I can't think of many who would drive an extra 75 miles to London in order to specifically fly on a jet. Damn sure I wouldn't, especially on a sector under 3 hrs. SOU passengers are used to props anyway, only recently have BACX changed to operating ERJ's on some of their routes.

Passengers want low fares, if it means flying on a prop then so be it. If you don't want to fly on a prop then you don't have to. Their are lots of shiny jets up at the many London airports that can whisk you away for a similar cost, all you need to do is add the hassle/cost of travelling and parking, which will probably have the effect of adding 50% of the cost of the fare you will be paying.

The order will see the retirement and return of the Dash Q200/300 fleets to Bombardier, and the CRJ's. One has already been painted into it's next airlines colours, that of Sahara Airlines of India. The remaining CRJ's should be gone within the next few months.

[richardhall99]

According to five news the new aircraft will be based at Belfast City, Edinburgh, Birmingham, Southampton and the Channel Islands. It is said it is to be the biggest aircraft order this year.

[Hydroforming Bushmaster]

Personally from a pax viewpoint the Q400 very nice; biggest problem more likely reliability as I wasn't best pleased at tonight's JER-SOU being 2hrs late due tech as I missed the footy.

Nice of flybe. to stump up £14 in refreshment vouchers (I got hammered at their expense) but was expecting nothing.

Anyhow, judging from the number of Titans, empty positioning in flybe. to SOU do I assume that the Q400s aren't exactly reliable anyway? When 'DL' did turn up tonight we zoomed back at FL90 which made me wonder if the pressurisation was knackered....and if so how would it have managed its lunchtime Bergamo rotation without clobbering the Alps?

[atco-matic]

Hydroforming Bushmaster, the Q400 often flies from the channel isles back to SOU at 9000ft and it has often puzzled me as to why it doesnt go any higher...

As regards travelling on a prop, personally speaking I would much rather fly on an aircraft which has a two/aisle/two arrangement than the three/aisle/three of a 737, so at least we (a couplke) wouldnt have to sit next to some fat smelly person we didn't know!!! Plus the high wing Q400 means a great view from every seat.

[foundation digger]

Dont see Ryan Air EasyJet rushing out to buy turboprops.
737 or A319 can operate 12 sectors a day carry up to 1200 pax
with 2 operating crews.
Turboprops are realy good on the odd specialised routes.
Tuboprops are complicated, they vibrate, they do not fly high enough or fast enough, they suffer from icing problems.
To get Turboprops to vibrate less like the Q400 makes them even more complicated.
They cost nearly as much to manufacture as jet aircraft and especially in Europe are only economical, when virtualy given away by desperate manufacturers who cannot sell aircraft .
Or when old and suitable for freight , which could not care less.
As to what aircraft pax prefer.
No contest
Jet aircraft.
Pax think , Dambusters when they see props.

[richardhall99]

According to report in Newcastle Journal this morning Newcastle is to get a capacity by a third. They have also announced capacity increase on the Jersey route aswell

[excrab]

Foundation Diggers post misses much of the point. No, Easyjet and Ryanair won't rush out to buy Q400s, they don't need to because they are operating routes which generate lots of passengers. But operate a 737 with 78 pax and your seat cost per mile doubles whereas the Q400 equals that of a full 73. So Flybe are right, for regional airports and low density routes they can offer prices which they couldn't do with a jet.

Regarding tech issues - at the moment if one Q400 goes tech then you will see invariably see a different aircraft turn up, as the other 3 are busy all the time out of BHX. When the 17 new a/c arrive this won't be so noticeable as there wil be more flexibility to shuffle aircraft around.

As for the levels across the channel, the fuel flows don't change much between 90 and (say)150, so it's advantageous to stay low and let the aircraft accelerate sooner. The airborne time from SOU to JER is only about 25 minutes with about 12 mins in the level cruise, so it's hardly worth climbing (although going up to 110 or 120 would avoid the 250kts speed limit).

In the end it will be up to the passengers to decide, and at the moment the loads are high and the fare structure has been designed very carefully (as with the other low cost carriers). Time wil tell, but it would be a shame if we as pilots knock the aircraft just because we prefer to fly a jet.

[foundation digger]

I have flown many different turboprops and jets and could not care less what I fly.
I do prefer my terms and conditions flying the Jet aircraft.
The turboprop undoubtly offers reasonable economics over short sectors, However there is little operational flexibility.
The 146/RJ also suffers from this problem which has undoubtly contributed to its demise.

I have no personal thing against turboprops, what I cannot understand is a decision to go for an oddball aircraft like the Q400 when such unbeatable deals are available on Airbus and Boeing products.

I have an idea why, but I will keep it to myself in case I get struck off

[RAFAT]

atco-matic - further to excrab's explanation about cruising levels on the DHC8 fleet, a rough guide is to use the sector distance as the cruising level of choice, up to the aircraft's ceiling (without drop-down oxy masks) of FL250, i.e. 180nm = FL180 cruise, and so on.

Additionally, a little info to any ATCers out there, the DHC8-400 is as flexible in the climb and descent as you want it to be, whatever the load. Just ask and thou shalt receive. :ok:

[transwede]

richardhall99 whats this about increase in capacity at egnt? There is a spotters site which mentions 3 dash8-400 aircraft to be based in ncl! To do what exactly? And what increase on the JER route. I was under the impression that it only ran on saturdays from may to october (some may call it a posh charter flight)!

[Whispering Giant]

Atco-matic and hydroforming bushmaster - the reason the dash does'nt go above FL090 between JER-SOU or even GCI-SOU is that it is at the request of airtraffic - both the channel island's and SOU have a agreement in place which enables operator's to depart and run the tight schedules they have between these destinations as long as they dont go above FL100 - this removes the a/c from entering the airway system and being subjected to lengthy ATC restrictions(slots). Which can be horrendous through the Hurn sector with traffic passing through here from LHR and LGW.
Hope this answers your querry.

[richardhall99]

The information in the Newcastle Journal stated that there would be an increase in the capacity on the NCL-BHD route with all operations using a 50 seater aircraft.

Where did you get the information about the number of aircraft coming to Newcastle. Any address for it?

[Weary]

Quote:

Tuboprops are complicated, they vibrate, they do not fly high enough or fast enough, they suffer from icing problems.
To get Turboprops to vibrate less like the Q400 makes them even more complicated.
They cost nearly as much to manufacture as jet aircraft and especially in Europe are only economical, when virtualy given away by desperate manufacturers who cannot sell aircraft
.

Oh really?!

So turboprops are "complicated" eh ? Compared to what - a turbojet !!!??? You must surely be talking about just the engines themselves, right? (and your point is ??)
Well, you might consider most turboprop aircraft are free of the complexity of drop down oxy masks, and all the expensive and time consuming maintenance that goes with servicing that system. You might also consider that because they operate at lower altitudes (read: lower pressurisation differentials), they can be built lighter and more cheaply to begin with.
As for icing "problems", I know of no great disadvantage (economical or safety) of operating a turboprop in icing conditions compared to a turbojet. Of course you could forget to turn on the prop-heat or whatever, but then you could do something equally negligent in a turbojet.
The economic advantages of operating them are also quite undeniable. You will recall of course the turboprop vrs turbojet graph of "efficiency" over "distance" that must surely appear in just about every textbook of basic aeronautics ever published.
The fact that the Bombardier/Pratt and Whitney has, if anything, emphasised that difference by producing a turboprop that genuinely cruises at Mach 0.6/ 365kts and does so on only half the fuel required by a 146-100 over the same route surely only highlights those basic advantages.
These are FACTS. If Flybe bought Boeing, Airbus, CRJs, or even Embraer, to replace their turboprop fleet, they would, at the very least, be throwing away the economical advantage of paying pilots turboprop wages instead of jet wages. And that is to say nothing of the cabin crew advantages. You could say many things about the Flybe management, but naive they are not.

Just about all the early reliability issues of the Q400 have since been solved. Dispatch rates are very close to what they ought to be. Buying more of these aircraft is only going to improve matters(more spares, etc), and so reduce the operating costs even more. Flybe have been operating a mixed fleet long enough now for them to be able to have had a good hard look at the economics of it all. They have done the sums.
That is why they are buying more Q400 turboprops.

[foundation digger]

Weary , Why such an aggressive tone ?

Much of what you say is true, although forgetting to select a system on is not normally considered a reasonable criteria in evaluation.
Any aircraft resticted to operations below 25000 ft in europe, (especially in the winter) will experience problems, creating additional discomfort for pax and crew, and especially for turboprops reduced efficiency due ice accretion.

The main advantage the 150 seat Boeing or Airbus has is operational flexibilty.
You can operate short, medium or longer sector lengths, as close as Birmingham Belfast or as far as Athens.

The Jet can with 2 rotations of 5 crew carry up to 1200 pax per day. Labour costs must be maximised to achieve low fares.

[Weary]

Hey foundation digger -

Don't get me wrong, I would MUCH rather fly a B737 than a turboprop, BUT

If you want to make money, you have to know your marketplace.

A great many of the most profitable routes for Flybe are into, and out of, quite short aerodromes. SOU, BHD, JER, GCI, IOM, LCY etc. Short field performance is one of the fundamental advantages of a turboprop over a jet. A 737 cannot operate from these runway lengths with enough passengers to be economical, certainly not at the same ticket prices of the Q400.
And that is to say nothing of the size of the customer base or the times THEY may wish to travel. Yes you can fit more people on a B737, but if there are only enough pax for 2 flights per day in your jet, what is it (and the crew) doing for the rest of the day? (Answer = loosing money).
A smaller capacity airliner serving the same market will be able to economically operate more flights per day and therefore offer more flexibility and choice for the consumer. When times are really tough they can also reduce the frequency of the service (as opposed to fly around with a half empty aeroplane), if necessary.
Put simply, your 737 is too big and heavy for the job.

I agree with you if your argument about icing is that turboprops are going to be in it more often. However, I cannot support the suggestion that, as a result, they will therefore be economically unsound to operate (compared to a jet).
My personal experience is that debilitating ice accretion is rarely a problem, but hey - I've only got 4000 hours in them and I could be wrong.

Sorry if I yelled at you in my last post !:)

[MerchantVenturer]

On an unofficial Exeter Airport website there is a quote from the local Exeter newspaper stating that Flybe will commence several national and international sched routes from EXT 'next summer' (I presume they mean summer 2004).

That will be interesting given that SOU is not a million miles away and Flybe are making that into a substantial base.

[In trim]

I agree with the above posts re the costs of Jet vs. Turboprop. I cannot see FlyBE developing in any market where they are in direct competition with the LoCo's flying 737-type equipment. There are, however, a lot of 'niches' out there where a good fast turboprop, with low running costs, is the ideal aircraft.

Some of the stations mentioned previously (GCI, JER, IOM, etc.) are ideal examples. I think the next few years may well see continued development of eJ, RYR, etc. on their 'patch', with FlyBE doing well if it sticks to these smaller markets.

Best of luck to FlyBe with this Q400 fleet.

[bwutus]

Weary. If one of the only reasons for buying a turboprop is so that you can pay the pilots less then it's a pretty cruddy reason. There is no justification for paying TP pilots less than jets, esp as the Flybe TP pay is so poor in the first place.

[Smokie]

I notice in FI, 29th April-5thMay, that 7, 146-200s will be replaced by the Q400.

Any 146 drivers been penciled in for Q400 courses yet?

Could cause further desent amongst the troops, with a two tier pay structure on the Q400.

Them's that are on "Jet" salaries and them's that ain't.:hmm:

[Whispering Giant]

Smokie - dont beleive everything you read in Flight International...
There are 3 146-300's joining the fleet in the very near future so as to start replacing the remaining 146-100's and 200's and several other 146-300's also being looked at..

W.G

[Smokie]

W.G

It'll be interesting to see where all the crews are going to come from, what with such large orders.

I shall wait with bated breath.