Pilot Assist post mortem

[mystic_av8r]

Well it is nearly a month since this organisation went into the hands of the receivers, and as one of those who have lost money, albeit a relatively small amount compared to some, I feel the need to express my personal opinion on where this company went wrong so that future trainee pilots don't make the same mistakes by signing up to a similar outfit.

First of all let me say that the quality of training I received on the groundschool was first class, a quality environment and supurb instruction. However this firm really was trying to run before it could walk....ab-initio frozen ATPL training straight through from day one?? very ambitious....in fact far too ambitious. They should have stuck with the groundschool first, and maybe later sourced some kind of agreement with other TO's for the flying side of things. As for this GAPAN testing, seems like another little cash extractor to me....if you are not cut out for aviation you find out very early on anyway......registration fee? yes, another £750 for nothing......airline placememt? yeah right.....one guy with Aurigny I believe. All show and little substance in these parts, and I reckon a lot of potential punters were put off of PAC by these little gimmicks. When choosing a school don't go for one with gimmicks like this

What makes me very angry is the fact that PAC seem to have actively encouraged many to take out CDL's etc. to pay for training, even up to the point when they must have realised the ship was on the verge of sinking. An act of desperation that has left many people several thousands of pounds in debt.

My personal experience backs this up...just 10 days or so before things got difficult I was in the office talking to "Captain" R(i)P's chain smoking sidekick about the flying course. I went in especially to discuss it as they had always been very vague about it from day one.(in fact this is what originally set the alarm bells ringing in my mind) He gave no indications of any problems whatsoever, and I got the impression he would have releaved me of a few thousand quid there and then if I had been willing to part with it.

While I am as sad as every one else that this venture folded, I feel a lot of the blame rests with over ambitious management who were trying to do to much too soon and on money that other people had borrowed and are still therefore responsible for repaying. This may have scuppered some individuals plans for good, and set everyone elses back by months. I will be very, very annoyed if any of the PAC directors pop up in a few months time at the helm of some new school. If the PAC directors feel bad about the fate of their ex students how about paying everyone back out of your own pockets? Ahh yes, they care, but they don't care that much.

Amen.

p.s......edited to add that this post is not aimed at the ex PAC instructors trying to set up a new school. good luck chaps.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

For future reference, note the schools and places the old hands hereabouts point to regularly. Then note the ones that never get given the thumbs up.

Therein lies a tale.

Hope your monetary setback is soon overcome.

WWW

[joniveson]

As I was only at the beginning of the PAC course I didn't lose a lot of money thankfully but the problem I am having is in getting hold of my exam results from them.

The letter they sent out said that all results and records would be sent straight to the CAA a few weeks ago yet the CAA haven't got them. Roger Easton told the CAA Captain Rick has them but apparently he is not answering his phone.

Has anyone else managed to get hold of results or records from them?

[Flash_heart]

A shame!! Rick Player had a vision and a genuine interest in the future of students. He did bring something new to the training industry and would he have had the full support of his fellow Director it might have worked.
It is greatly appriciated that there are a number of students who lost money and of course the added strain of how to continue their training, to those people I say; keep going, this time research and vet the school well before you sign up. MOST IMPORTANT, don't fall for the "CHARM" of the chain smoking salesman.
It is obvious that the company made a lot of bad decisions and went against good advice. They had the respect of a lot of important people and organisations, one of these organisations even offered them a deal which would have sealed their future. It was turned down, reason "snobbery". It was all thrown away for a quick profit and greed, and worse an ellement of missguided self-importance, especially on the part of the "chain smoker".
Rick, Instructors, students and staff you have my sympathy and good wishes for the future.

[Master Yoda]

I was very nearly one of u guys.

[b025053]

Indeed, I have suffered as have many as a PAC student. My CDL was with Barclays and had £7000 to run, surely it hasnt disappeared into the void that was pilot assist?

And now I hear You guys are struggling to get your hands on the ground exams? I took mine just after Xmas (6xPPL), and presumed that the qouted CAA would have them but it would seem otherwise if you guys are right.

All this puts me off further trg, and possible genuine outfits are getting passed over because I cant trust any ****** now!:(

All the best to anyone else in the same boat!

[Alex Whittingham]

No, the exam results are safe, and records are kept by the CAA. Training records are what is being discussed here, these should be kept by the FTO and surrendered to the CAA on request so that, if you transfer to a new training provider in mid-course, they know what you have done. The CAA will do everything to help you even if your training records cannot be found.

[joniveson]

The exam results are not with the CAA. I contacted the CAA to get mine as the letter from PAC said they would all be sent on but the CAA told me they haven't got them. They have spoken to Roger Easton who said that all of the results and records are with Rick Player who is apparently not answering his mobile phone.

[Alex Whittingham]

That's not good.

[BlueRobin]

Hmmm.... :hmm:

So who was it that kept banging on that PA hadn't filed their accounts last year? I remember this chap being lambasted some what.

Just a small memory I have of the situation .

[joniveson]

BlueRobin you've lost me on that one

[mgc]

i must offer my sympathy to all of those of you out there who have lost out with the demise of PA.

I spent a lot of time talking to them about how to go about flying training. Their advice was, I believe, good and Rick was genuine. They undoubtedly had very ambitious plans and comments about running before walking are very appropriate..

Although I never took any training from them they certainly convinced me to get trained and for that I am grateful.

The impression I get from other comments about the attitudes towards getting income, ie pay up front, are very similar to those I have seen when other companies have been going under. The warnings are clear if you know what to look for. Look at the comments about OATS and attitudes towards flexible payments.

I believe that even for a limited company the directors are required to wind the company up as soon as it is apparent that the company is no longer viable, otherwise the directors become personaly liable for loses. The problem has always been to prove that they knew the company was no longer viable. Even if you can do this they need to have assets that you chase them for through the courts.

[High Wing Drifter]

Regarding the lost of CDLs. Have you chaps checked with the Bank. As the individual concerned does not have any control over the money the Bank will not cough on spec. Surely they have to be invoiced, which I imagine means that you will only pay for training already received. If the Bank has handed your money for services not provided then there is a case to answer...surely.

[BEagle]

b025053 - you stated that your PPL exam results weren’t available? They should be recorded on your FCL-JAR02 PPL application form. Were you debriefed on your exam answers? You should have been - it’s part of the Examiner’s job. Uniquely the PPL and/or IMC rating theoretical knowledge papers are the only ones which you may be fully debriefed upon........and Examiners are required to keep applicants’ answer forms for at least 2 years.

Incidentally, were you charged a separate Examiner’s fee for your PPL exams, or was it all part of the PAC scheme of charges? I’d query the Examiner who marked your papers if I were you. If you get no joy, then write to the CAA giving them his/her name and ask them to require him/her to forward your answer forms to them by Recorded Delivery.

[Chuffer Chadley]

High Wing Drifter

Unfortunately, my understanding of a CDL is that once it's paid by the bank (in a big lump) it's paid by the bank and becomes your responsibility. In fact, the literature supplied specifically says that if the trainign provider goes bust it's the student's liability. I'm not entirely sure that there isn't another way out, but I hope that you chaps affected by this can get something back.

Makes it more tempting to get an ordinary (more expensive) loan and pay by credit card.

Boo!

Cheerio
CC

[joniveson]

I did get a debriefing on my PPL exam results yes, but how does that help? I know the results, I just have no proof. I was never given a PPL application form.

The CAA have tried to contact the Managing Director to get hold of the results but to no avail. They have now given me his contact details for me to try. No luck so far.

[BEagle]

The debrief serves to correct your aeronautical knowledge. There is more to life in aviation than just 'ticks in boxes' for passing exams.

However, the Examiner who marked your paper MUST enter the details on the PPL application form - it needs to have his/her signature and examiner number recorded. These will also be on your answer sheets - which you are not entitled to keep.

Examiners are appointed by the CAA to conduct examinations on their behalf. They cannot shrug shoulders on that responsibility. Unless it was the MD who conducted the examinations, it is the specific Examiner from whom the CAA should be seeking information. They should have his/her contact details on their database since it was they who appointed the Examiner....

[Dean Johnston]

Have any of you guys checked at the legal situation regarding approvals? As i understand it, an approval is somewhat different to a recomendation, as in, the people who approve someone elses product ( as opposed to recomending it ) have a legal obligation to ensure that the person/company can provide that product/service.

Just a thought.

I'm glad I stayed with BGS when PA was trying to tempt me over to them. Incidentley just weeks before they went t!ts up.

[Dah Dah...Dit]

Hmmm, that must've been a different Dean Johnston flying PA - 38's at Nottingham then?!

[aardvark keeper]

Not that this will help the guys that have lost money, but when paying for any form of training, try to pay for it via a credit card. This way you take up an agreement with the CC company who in turn take up an agreement with the training provider.

CDL providers wont usually pay any loans to the person direct, so if you explain this, they may be able to be flexible with this and make the cheque payable to the CC company.

There also seems to be a lot of guys with CDL's from barclays. Maybe its worth you all getting together and trying to point out that if they didn't only allow payment to the training provider, many would have only paid for training received?

Might be worth a try

[Send Clowns]

Not much help, I'm afraid Dean. Same happened with PPSC and SFT in 2001, and others in the past. CAA helpful with training records and time extensions, but not finances. CAA approval requires a certain amount of financial disclosure I believe, but the approval is strictly defined.

Aardvark

Ask a school if you can pay as you train, or even in arrears. There is no reason why not, nor why they should charge a large premium for this. There are schools that are not expensive that charge at the end of the week for the week's flying. Your money is safe, as is theirs (they do not sign your papers until you settle up!). If this became industry standard students would no longer lose large amounts of money, as many of my friends / students did with SFT.

[aardvark keeper]

Send clowns

Thanks for the advice, I was actually giving it myself too.

I heard of this scheme going pear shaped from one of my students losing £2000.

You are most correct though, our training organisation does allow anyone to pay as they fly like any FTO should.

I think Barclays terms of CDL's need reviewing or staggered payments to protect the candidate.

[Oscar Duece]

What many people didn't see or want to see. Was the way PAC pushed the CDL's like no one else.
Because it was a quick sure fire way for them to get £ 8K straight into their account direct from the other bank. Period.
Why people took a chance to train with a company run by two people with no airline experience what so ever,( only 'capt' dick had any commercial flying experience, flying rotary vfr in Us. ) .

The staff that joined later may have good intentions, but it was only your money that the company wanted.

Plus a bit to much was made of the phantom 'investor' form what I hear. The cash flow was the CDL's...:*

[Dean Johnston]

Dah Dah. Dit,

O' No, not two Dean Johnstons in the skys, its bad enough when i'm up there. Never been to Nottingham ( well only via M1 ).

It was'nt me.

DJ.

[Dean Johnston]

Send Clowns,

I take it you are involved with a FTO, if so, are you saying I could do my CPL flying with you and pay as I go, or in arrears ? I've spoken to two schools and they both want money upfront. Depending on my results ( due Sat 25th ) I will be flying or resitting.

Just a thought.

D.J.

[GT]

Want money up front! That sounds odd to me. Another disadvantage of doing this is that if you're not happy with the training/service that you're getting it makes quitting and going somewhere else that bit more difficult (in my opinion).

Regards, GT.

[Flash_heart]

Anyone been able to contact them? All their previous contact details are cancelled!!

[mysteryshopper]

Flash_Heart - you could try the liquidators - are you a PAC creditor?

[itchy kitchin]

Hello Mystery shopper.
Reading this (again) just made me fell how sad that it ended like this.:(

[Send Clowns]

:O Sorry I didn't reply Dean. I was away when you posted and the thread had dropped off the page before I returned.

I do indeed work for an FTO that not only allows payment in arrears for flying but will not take money in advance for more than one trip. Most students pay on account at the end of the week I believe, settling up before tests and before paperwork is signed to keep us safe :). If other schools won't match this then email me or send me a private message.