French ATC

[skidcanuck]

Has anybody ever had an "incident" that could relate to other aircraft using the French ATC, thus you didn't know the other aircraft's location?

Just curious.

:confused:

[Llamapoo]

Do you mean speaking in French over the R/T?

Anecdotally, I have heard of a lot of complaints, but this could be just annoyance of the English speakers upon hearing French over the R/T.

Maybe try doing a search of the following reporting/investigation sites:

Confidential Human Factors Reporting Programme (CHIRP) (http://www.chirp.co.uk/air/default.htm)
Air Accidents Investigation Board (UK AAIB) (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/)
Transportation Safety Board (Canadian TSB) (http://www.bst.gc.ca/en/index.asp)
National Transportation Safety Board (US NTSB) (http://www.ntsb.gov/)

Hope you find what you're looking for (or maybe I don't...).

[152captain]

I fly VFR in the Montreal and Quebec areas frequently. Although I am fluently bi-lingual (English and French), I transmit (and usually receive) in English. I have to say, the full ATC system is very bi-lingual, as are the FSSs (or whatever they call them now).

As for pilots, on our en-route frequency in uncontrolled airspace 126.7, everytime I have communicated in English, efforts are made by the other pilots to communicate back in english, same goes for aerodrome frequencies (MF, ATF).

It's true that a command of French ATC helps with full situational awareness, but the ATC guys help very much with that. Of course, I only have 100 hrs or so....

152

[777driver]

There was an accident in Paris, I don't remember anymore which airport, between a French plane and a British. Result the copilot of the British plane died.

[saudipc-9]

I've flown military jets into Montreal too and it is not much fun when you are doing 250+kts into the break and some w@nker is stooging around speaking french. It reduces everyones situational awareness around an airport.
English is the international language of aviation so why don't the french get on with it and stop being such twats.

[Quebecer]

Saudipc-9

Being French-canadian, these remarks kind of ruffled my feathers. A lot of countries in Europe do not always use english over the radio; I've flown in Spain, Portugal, Italy, the UAE, Oman, etc and felt the same way you did flying a Jet in YUL. Was it pleasant? No. Was it unsafe? I certainly don't think so. Are they all twats? I'll let you answer this one. How many accidents/incidents every year have for cause non-english R/Ts? I'd be curious to find out. Never heard it was a concern... except maybe to some unilingual people.

Like they say, when in Rome...

P.S: Tu aurais du faire un peu plus d'effort pendant tes cours de français.

Cheers!

[saudipc-9]

Quebecer,
OK, perhaps calling them twats was abit OTT. However, I do believe that multi languages spoken on the radio is a flight safety hazard.
There are occasions here in Riyadh that the locals revert to arabic in order to sort something out that they cannot shout at each other in english. They do return to english for take-off/landing clearances etc..
If french was the language of aviation then I would speak french on the radio, bit it isn't. I find it very unprofessional for a pilot and ATC to speak in a language which might be the cause or contributing factor in an accident/incident.
I don't have any examples to tell you about, but I do seem to remember hearing about some in the far reaches of the back of my mind. I'll see if I can drag some up

Cheers

PS: I studied french at St Jean for six months with the CF

[Rockhound]

I remember some years ago overhearing on my VHF scanner an exchange between ATC and the pilot of a BA heavy jet, who I believe was in Quebec airspace. The BA pilot had been listening to radio traffic in French between ATC and a nearby aircraft. The BA pilot asked ATC if they could request the French-speaking pilot to communicate in English, as the BA crew did not understand French. ATC refused his request, pointing out that the use of French in ATC in Quebec was legal. Clearly irritated, the BA pilot responded that that was unfortunate and they would "continue to feel nervous" (I remember those were his exact words).
Rockhound

[bearcat88]

We routinely fly jets in the Montreal airspace both VFR and IFR and have yet to come across a serious porblem wrt language. ATC has always been most cooperative in sorting out any confusion and will quickly intervene if a safety issue arises. It seems like an old issue being rehashed for little gain.
As for the VFR french traffic mixing with jet traffic (read fighter guy) in the overhead break at 250 kias that would be an issue at most civilian airports regardless of the language. Breaks look pretty but do little to make life easier for ATC.
88

[saudipc-9]

ATC has always been most cooperative in sorting out any confusion and will quickly intervene if a safety issue arises.
Why should they have to sort anything out at all? If we all spoke the same language then there would be nothing to sort out.

the overhead break at 250 kias that would be an issue at most civilian airports
And the reason for that would be????? Have you ever flown one bearcat88?? If everyone knows where everyone else is (ie hearing and speaking the same language) and are flying the appropriate altitudes then there is no conflict. Any ATC worth it's weight in salt should be able to handle an overhead break.

Back over to you:=

[pigboat]

I've flown in Quebec for nearly fourty years and never had a problem. On the contrary, I think it probably works the other way. In the case of a unilingual French pilot who would be reluctant to use English, at least he's talking, so you know there's somebody out there to keep an eye out for.

[Bush Driver]

It's true it can be an issue.

Recently, in Morocco an a/c was flying continuously near an airport, speaking to ATC in french.

Several US C130's were also using this same airport. No disrespect meant to the US crews, but did they know where the other a/c was?

Incidentally, only one crewmember on the a/c in question spoke french, the F/O was an anglophone.

A recipe for problems-perhaps. It indeed caused problems in the cockpit, between the left seat and right!

[Ludwig]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154&highlight=streamline

[ehwatezedoing]

This topic has been covered hundred time.

Ok! english may be nice to be heard everywhere.
But just try sometime to digest 100 words shouted in 10 seconds by ATC in....NY area for example.
:ok: And it´s your lucky day he/she got a texan accent :ok:

.......speaking the same language!? :hmm:

[ICT_SLB]

Bonjour a tous!
Yep this comes up every year or so. I once got into conversation with an attractive Quebecoise ATCO on the very subject and her opinion was that no pilot - whatever language or languages being used - had good situational awareness. Of course it doesn't help that a certain manufacturer near Montreal goes out of its way to confuse everyone, including ATC, by flying identical aircraft in the same airspace at the same time - we once had a call from YMX "Thought I'd just cleared you to taxi back" (we were on finals at the time - it was a sister aircraft he'd cleared).

I have to query the allusion to Texans talking "100 words in 10 seconds" - I worked next to one for two years and he couldn't get 100 words out in an hour let alone a minute! I was always getting into trouble for interrupting & he was just getting started!

[saudipc-9]

Sounds to me like that ATCO needs to spend some time in the cockpit to get a different perspective.
Now can you just imagine flying into NYC, Denver or even Toronto when it's busy and having someone pipe up and talk in french!!
Let's be honest, it just boils down to just one thing. Some people want to speak french because they believe it is their right and safety be damned. Very sad!!

[bearcat88]

Saudipic - As a matter of fact I have been in the break a time or two and busted up a circuit when they could handle the delta in speed and traffic. It had nothing to do with language. You`re sounding a little bitter there bud.:hmm:

[saudipc-9]

Bearcat,
Bitter? Not at all, just prepared to wave the BS flag when I feel it needs to be shown. Just curious what you were flying in the delta.
You still have not told me why the Break is an issue at a civilian airport.
Cheers

[bearcat88]

S-9 .... I suppose that going into the break at 250 kts with a few C-172s in the circuit, 500 feet of vertical separation at best, 180 kts of speed diparity and throw in a controller who sees Air Canada twice a day on a twenty mile final and the mix is right to rapidly overwhelm the tower. It was OK at a military base where such a mix was common but it seemed that most other places would literally clear the circuit until you`d landed. Language had little to do with it. Anyway, no insults intended on my part nor did I take any offence in your comments. Just thought I`d jump in for a bit of friendly banter. Fly safe.
P.S. If you`re ex-CF try "cfpilots.com". It is a lot like this site only more specific.:ok:

[saudipc-9]

Bearcat,
I'm on cfpilots all the time just under a different name:ok: Are you on it?
The situation you decribe could be rather dangerous not that it exsists all that often. However, could you imagine that situation as well as one or two of the C-172 guys not being able to or wanting to speak english! That would make the situation much worse don't you think?
Cheers

[russellackland]

i tried finding www.cfpilots.com! doesn't exist when i type it in. is there another address?

[EuroATC]

Quebecer

I am an air traffic controller having spent some time in Ottawa, Toronto, Geneva Switzerland and presently in Bahrain. I have worked with french in Geneva and shortly after I arrived there the management changed the "rules" and said we could no longer use french on the frequency in the upper airspace. The pilots got along just fine, Air France made up for 20% of the traffic and no problems at all. Speaking any other language than english in ATC is a "convenience". Have I seen situations where safety was compromised for using other than english. ABSOLUTELY. Now I cannot speak for all gulf countries but all R/T in Bahrain is english. The arguement used by many that "at least if we let them use their own language they can communicate better".. Sorry that's a load of crap. If you cannot speak english you should not be flying. Some say pilots don't have situational awareness. I disagree, most do have a real good idea what's going on. I was even thanked by a BA 747 crew for speaking english in Geneva. He said it was the first time he had heard ATC in Geneva speaking english to Air France and thought it was a great thing for safety. After all, what does it hurt us to speak the same language?

[skidcanuck]

Good post, Euro!

[ICT_SLB]

" tried finding www.cfpilots.com! doesn't exist when i type it in. is there another address?"

It's a Canadian website, hence the normal domain is .ca - www.cfpilots.ca works!

[Grouchy]

Yes, there has been an incident, where French control at Ottawa of a landing Metro landed (or overshot , cant remember now) overtop of a positioned AC regional jet. The regional jet pilot was cleared to position to hold and a Metro had to overshoot. The RJ captain reported that the Metro was being handled in French and that he had no idea what was happening. The TSB investigators cited bilingual control of the aircraft as a contributing cause of the incident however that finding was dismissed by the higher up politically correctors.

[Llamapoo]

Just to add another fact to the discussion, I've just come across a reference to a study Transport Canada did, investigating the safety issues surrounding bilingual ATC. This study took place between 1976 and 1981 (sorry, can't find the report, but could probably get it from the people involved or the TC library).

Transport Canada regs still allow bilingual ATC, so I guess they decided there was no significant danger (your starter for ten: define 'significant'...).:8

[saudipc-9]

I'm not so sure that report would still be valid. The amount of traffic has to have gone up quite a bit over the past twenty or more years since that report came out. Maybe TC needs to do another one without any political influence.

[EuroATC]

French in Canadian ATC is still used because it would be a political nightmare for anyone who tried to remove it. The only way it will ever happen is when an accident happens that is 100% blamed on the fact that all parties involved were not using one language. A couple years ago a plane almost landed on another in position at YOW..how much more of a close call do you need??? I speak both fluently, I feel sorry for the poor guy who will be involved in that accident when it happens.

[breguet]

Grouchy, why don't you tell all the findings and the causes of the incident you are refering to.

Basically french was not the cause of this incident as you seem to imply. The report states: "A risk of collision occurred as the result of an ineffective controller handover procedure..."

Amongst the 18 findings of the report only one mentionned the fact that the RJ crew did not undestand french and it is in 13th position. Hence, your assertion that it was remove for political reason is absolutely false.

If you want to check, page 22 of the report as para. 2.5 Language of Communications covering this part which according to you was not in the report.

EuroATC, you should also reread the report if you have it.

Because, both of you, are guilty of intellectual dishonesty.

[Grouchy]

I am not guilty of intellectual anything.:rolleyes:
I gave you a 6 or so sentence response to what is actually a very long report that I read an even longer time ago.
As the captain on one of these aircraft is a very good friend of mine, I was in the loop, if you wish, the day it happened and read his report before it was even submitted to the safety board. He told me and I read if first hand that his main cause of this incident was the bilingual handling of the 2 a/c in question.
If the politically correctors chose to bury the facts as far down as number 13 I have no control over that. That's the way they operate in Canada.
Just as an aside, why was it the RJ crew not understanding French, rather than the metro crew not monitoring and maintaining a listening watch in English that you refer to in number 13?.

[pigboat]

Grouchy, unilingual English radio communication is not a guarantee against the type of incident you describe. Stick USAir 1493 into your search engine and see what you come up with, then tell me if I'm wrong.

[Grouchy]

How did I get on the wrong side of this argument?
The original question wasn't getting any responses so I thought I would respond, don't shoot the messenger.
As hard as you try you will not change what has already happened.

[saudipc-9]

pigb,
Unilingual French radio communication is not a guarantee either.
This incident describes what can be a major contributing factor to an incident/accident.
Why is it that the only people who have their head in the sand over these issues are the ones who are politically motivated and not flight safety orientated?:rolleyes:

[pigboat]

Grouchy, it was not my intention to shoot the messenger. I interpreted your post to mean that if all parties in the incident you alluded to had spoken English, the event would not have occurred. I used the example of USAir 1432 to show, as the song says, 'tain't necessarily so. I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way.
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/1991/1991-3.htm

Saudi, agreed that unilingual French is no guarantee either. A loss of separation occurred between an ATR42 and a L1011 near the QB VOR some years back where all the parties involved were communicating in French. As that incident and the USAir737/WS Metro accident prove, **** can happen in any language.
You accuse me of two things, being politically motivated and not flight safety oriented. I'm retired. I don't have to kiss anyone's ass for any reason, least of all for political motives. As for my dedication to flight safety, I don't happen to believe that a French Quebecer should have to learn English to do circuits and bumps at the local airport in St. Ciboire. French communication is offered at all Quebec airports, and at Ottawa. I'd be the first to agree this was a political decision, but presumably a risk analysis was carried out before this became law twenty or so years ago and the risk was deemed minimal. As things stand now, if that unilingual guy is out there chances are he'll be talking to someone and obtaining the traffic not keeping mum and blundering around in somebody elses airspace.

[EuroATC]

breguet

Regardless what you say, two aircraft speaking different languages was a cause of the incident. Don't give me that crap about "Read the report"... not sure what field you work in but you should know as well as I do, the truth is not always presented in incident/accident reports. I was involved in an incident where I was a coordinator and the radar controller lost sep down to 1 mile/400 feet. It was pure controller error but the report was half a dozen pages talking about teamwork and equipmen etc... The use of French in Canada is purely political. If private pilot xx wants to fly around and do circuits at the local airport I have no prob with him being provided french ATC as most others flying at that airport are probably french speaking as well. French or anything others language aside from english has no place in the IFR ATC world period. Every ATC provider in the world is making efforts to harmonize airspace, procedures, equipment.. the one things they have problems with is the language.. why??? POLITICS! The Swiss made a huge decision back a couple years ago, no more FRENCH R/T above FL 270. The world did not fall apart and those who we were accomodating in french just spoke english and no one complained.

No one can accuse me of being anti-french or a french hater since french is my first language and I was born and raised in a french community. I just believe everyone should use 1 language.

breguet.... just to add
"Basically french was not the cause of this incident as you seem to imply. The report states: "A risk of collision occurred as the result of an ineffective controller handover procedure..."

Amongst the 18 findings of the report only one mentionned the fact that the RJ crew did not undestand french and it is in 13th position. Hence, your assertion that it was remove for political reason is absolutely false."

I am very aware of this incident and even know those 2 controllers who were involved. Was also a poor visibility day in Ottawa tower and the fact that an aircraft was in position was somewhat overlooked. If R/T was in English there is a HUGE HUGE chance it would have been saved earlier. Incidents happen when a chain of errors is present. Than series of errors could have been stopped, use of 1 language on the radio is a safety net. Bottom line, if everyone does their job 100% correctly 100% of the time then who cares what anyone speaks. IF the airplane turn when i tell him or climbs and descends when I tell him too... and the controller spots every single conflict then we would live in a perfect world... but we don't... In ATC, we have in certain places 2 people working a sector.. why? Second set of eyes..., we have a conflict alert on the radar...why? because we might make a mistake, we have minimum safe altitude warning..why? because you the pilot might make a mistake... the list goes on and on and on... and for me.. if i have to fly to go see grandma somewhere far away.. i am damn glad for all these safety nets... 1 R/T language is part of that list and unfortunately for POLITICAL reasons we can't change it in Canada....

[777driver]

http://www.bea-fr.org/francais/rapports/rap.htm (http://)

Type Modèle Immat Catégorie
avion, Shorts 330, G-SSWN, Transport public,
Pays Lieu - Departement Date Langue
France Roissy - 95 25/05/2000 english
Résumé
The MD 83 registered F-GHED was cleared to take off from runway 27 at Paris Charles de Gaulle. The Shorts 330 registered G-SSWN was then cleared to line up and to wait as "number two". The controller believed that the two aircraft were at the threshold of the runway, whereas the Shorts had been cleared to use an intermediate taxiway. The Shorts entered the runway at the moment the MD 83 was reaching its rotation speed. The tip of the MD 83's left wing went through the Shorts 330's cockpit and hit both pilots. The MD 83 aborted its takeoff. The HTML version is not yet available.

Type Modèle Immat Catégorie
avion, Mc Donnell Douglas MD 83, F-GHED, Transport public,
Pays Lieu - Departement Date Langue
France Roissy - 95 25/05/2000 english
Résumé
The MD 83 registered F-GHED was cleared to take off from runway 27 at Paris Charles de Gaulle. The Shorts 330 registered G-SSWN was then cleared to line up and to wait as "number two". The controller believed that the two aircraft were at the threshold of the runway, whereas the Shorts had been cleared to use an intermediate taxiway. The Shorts entered the runway at the moment the MD 83 was reaching its rotation speed. The tip of the MD 83's left wing went through the Shorts 330's cockpit and hit both pilots. The MD 83 aborted its takeoff.

[saudipc-9]

PigB,
I wasn't accusing you of anything. It was more of a general statement. You do raise an interesting point. What about this french only pilot doing circuits and bumps at the local airport in St. Ciboire. Do you think then a restriction should be applied to his/her licence that limits them to Quebec borders?
It still would not help if this pilot then decided to toddle into Ottawa or any other major airport where he could only speak french. I believe that this person would be a hazard to flight safety.
Communication is one of the most important factors in the safe conduct and execution of flight operations. Anything that jeopardizes this needs to be addressed regardless of the political implications.