Whats the best way to become an airline pilot these days???

[sgarvey]

hi there,
I'm 18 years old and im on the path to following my lifelong dream of being a pilot but i need some help. I know now is probably a bad time to go into becoming a pilot after 9/11 and the iraq war etc. but im stil determined to get there. i've no actual flying experience myself yet but i intend on getting an introductory flying lesson soon. I know becoming an airline pilot is huge money, which i dont have (being only 18 and all). would my best bet be to get my PPL first and then do my IR and CPL? What should i do? Are there any companies out there wiling to sponsor young wanabe pilots like myself? Im studing engineering in Trinity college but i'm dropping out to persue this career and also the fact that i dont want to continue with it because its too difficult and boring. Can anyone please tell me what i should do? Also how much will all this cost? Thank you.

Stephen :D

Just to add that i'm living in ireland. i would like to train here in ireland also, i know of the companies west air in kildare and southaer in cork. Are these good flying schools? Thanks.

Steve

[Sagey]

If I was in your situation, and I am just another wannabe albeit 24, I would continue your degree course and get a degree. It certainly wouldn't do any harm if sponsorships are re-introduced.

CTC McAlpine are currently running a sponsorship on behalf of EasyJet & Thomas Cook and extensive details can be found by searching the sponsorship & jobs wannabe forum.

I am currently slowly saving for training, researching both integrated & modular courses and trying to make an educated guess as to when the best time to start training is. That may be your best bet for the moment as well.

You do have age on your side, typically sponsorships run from 18-26/27. There has been considerable debate wondering whether sponsorships will come back, and the general consensus is that they will not return in the guise that they were previously.

Hope that helps

Sagey

[Megaton]

Hope you're joking about dropping out because university is boring and difficult. If it's a wind-up I'll bite. Your ATPL exams are difficult and boring, learning checks is difficult and boring, understanding aircraft systems is difficult and boring so if you're easily bored I would suggest you look elsewhere for a career. An airline, or indeed any employer, will not be impressed by someone who does not have the intellectual stamina or resolve to see their decisions through to the end. If you want an easy life, commercial aviation is not the right career choice for you. Might sound harsh but there are plenty of people out there who're working very hard so you've got to be competitive to stand a chance.

As for seeking sponsorship, see comments above.

An integrated course will cost in the region of £50000 GBP. Modular training might cost 2/3 of this figure.

Engineering training would stand you in excellent shape for the ATPL exams which, believe me, are hard work. If I were you, I'd get on with the course but, in parallel, look around for sponsorship; you might be lucky. What I wouldn't do is drop out in the hope that someone was going to offer me an airline job on a plate.

[Lucifer]

Have you got a plan to be able to pay for your course at all? If you are simply thinking of dropping out of university then you had better think up a better reason than it being too boring and hard, since there will be much more motivated people than that if and when a sponsored course comes up in the future. Who would you take - a dropout or a driven applicant?

Now is not the time to abandon other career paths for aviation, especially when you have no experience whatsoever. Plus you need a great deal more information before you even think of taking that step - though of course you are investigating by using this website.

Have you thought about whether you are medically fit enought to be a pilot?

If you are capable of getting a degree you should, because quite simply having gone to Trinity you have taken up the place of someone who has not had that chance, and being capable deserve to give yourself that chance.

[silverknapper]

I would agree with the above.
I got a maths degree and while it was hard, it showed me that I had the ability to study. More importantly it showed the HSBC that I had the necessary ability when I applied for a loan. I am just starting the subjects, they ain't easy. Personally I feel had I began at 18 I wouldn't have gotten anywhere in a hurry. I was too busy boozing and chasing birds to have made a good go at it.
Do your PPL while at Uni and get your hours in. The markets not good now anyway and you will benefit from living a bit.
If you are going to jack in uni maybe even get a set of notes to see what you think. Do your trial flight, better still have 5 or 6 lessons to see if you like it. They aren't wasted as they all count in your book. And most importantly get a class 1 medical. This forum is purely academic until you know that you'll pass.

[timzsta]

Finish your degree, for three reasons. Firstly it shows commitment and it will also be good grounding for your future degree. Finally, the aviation industry is hard work (earliest I get up is 0230, latest finish 0100) and very depressing at times like these. You have age on your side, so enjoy university, drink lots, chase the girls and have some fun while you can.

Before you go to far, make sure you are medically fit to fly for the airlines by getting a JAA Class 1 medical as soon as possible. It will cost you about £500GB.

Sponsorships are a thing of the past and are difficult to get. I applied for a Britannia sponsorship last year - figures banded about were 10,000 application forms submitted, 250 people called for testing, 50 for further tests and down to 6 on the course - yes 6 out of 10,000. Fancy your chances?

With regard to "its boring and too hard", my best friend did a civil engineering degree. Difficult stuff and he had to work bloody hard to get his 2:1 I can tell you. But he found doing ATPL theoretical exams even harder. Some of it is extremely dull and some of the systems is very technical. Most of all it is the sheer volume of stuff that you have to know. You cant take them one exam at a time either.

My advice to you would be
1. Finish your degree and get your medical.
2. When you leave uni at age 21, get yourself a job and earn the money to do your PPL & see if you have the ability to fly and more importantly if you like it.
3. Without any disrespect by this time you will be a little older and wiser and be able to make a better judgement on your career ambitions and your own capabilities.
4. Remember though, with determination, application and hard work (and a little luck) it can all be done, and when your in the RHS of your 737 it will be worth it.

Best of luck

[sgarvey]

i probably shouldnt have said the words "too difficult and boring". I didnt really think when i wrote the post. The situation with me is, im quite capeable when it comes to working but in the degree im doing at the minute, i ran into it putting down whatever came to mind and i didnt know what i was letting myself in for. I started it and found out very quickly that i didnt like it. Furthermore i had nothing to aim for at the end of it, there was nothing to motivate me, and at the end of teh day i dont want to work as an engineer. All i enjoy doing is reading about aircraft and flying flight sims (it all sounds idealistic and all). In college my end of year exams are in three weeks and to be totally honest im not going to be able to pass them, which means i will fail the year. I've been very confused and unfocused the whole year round but now i seem to be getting my head together a little bit more. I've seriously considered my options and flying is my first choice with transferring to a computer science course being my second.
i can also get a job in FLS, one of the huge maintenance hangars in Dublin Airport if that would be any help to me, could i could go from there to being a pilot (without having to fork out the full 75,000euro to get my lisences)?
I'm very determined to get into flying, I'm going to write to whoever i can about sponsorship and if i cant get it il probably take up computer science and try to get my PPL along with it. Thanks for your replies. Any more information or advice is very welcome. Thanks :)

Stephen.

[Irishwingz]

Stephen

I understand where you are coming from - I 'woke up' last year and finally realised I wanted to look at pursuing a career in flying. I think being in a long term relationship blinded me somewhat. Anyway, I have a science degree and 5 years pretty decent work experience. I'm throwing that in now and am going to South Africa for step one - the PPL. I'll see how that goes and maybe take it to another level. I'm 27 so age is not on my side like yourself (its not too bad!)

Now, DO NOT take the decision to leave Trinity lightly, I dont want to lecture you, it sounds like you really are not at all happy. Why not try and motivate yourself by passing year 1 and transferring to UL to aeronautical eng? That would be more applied to airplanes and a good step in the right direction. You need something to fall back on. Alternatively try the UK for courses - F**k it - pass first year even if you have to repeat in the summer.

Before you go any further do the medical - you can do it in the Mater Private, its pricey but even just to know you can get a Class 1 is the point. Print off the regs from the CAA website and bring them to your GP first perhaps.

You are lucky to be 18 but counting on sponsorship is crazy - self financing is expensive. This may sound odd but you may not even like flying. I have this 'idealistic' view myself, I hope I do get hooked.

Good luck and listen to the advice of the messages here. PM me if you want and I'll gladly try and help you out more.

IrishWingz;)

[stargazer02]

Stephen
my advice is get your degree and try and do your ppl while in college...then you'll know whether r not u want to continue.
Getting a job in FLS won't get you into flying any easier...if you had an engineering degree it would help you to get into FLS at a better pay scale which could fund your flying/exams
The fact that you would work for FLS won't make u exempt for any exams/test...you will still have to do it just like everyone else.

Stay in college try and swap to UL and do aeronautical engineering that WILL help you in the long run...if flying doesn't work out you'll have something to fall back on

Also like you said the market is not good right now so the best thing is to stay in college and work on the flying/exams after or during...that way you get a good education and will probably finish around 2005-6...it's around then that the market is predicting the biggest short fall and then you would be ideally placed to get a job.

But dont' forget it's hard work and various hours and checks/and
re checks so be sure it's what you want .....if so then go for it

get your 1st class medical too....very important before paying any sort of money out

lastly sponsorships are long gone...even the airlines aren't doing cadetships because they are investing too much money into them..the direct entry way will probably be the only way forward due to the world today and airline finances etc
unless you have really wealthy folks then you'll end up doing it like all of us...scraping together every red cent and shelving holidays all in the name of an aviation job

[boeingbus2002]

HI Stephen..
You dont mention what Engineering degree you are doing.
You obviously need a bit of motivation at the moment. Doing a course like Eng when you would rather be "up in the skies" is very difficult. Try to think about it like this. If you Pass your degree with a high as possible grade..the better chance of a good job after you graduate. That will mean easier and quicker to save the money to pay your own way.
Sponsorships are out for the moment. However you can make a start..by getting your PPL. If they do start, the PPL is an indicator of your seriousness to flying.
I know its hard to get on with yr degree, but think what would you do if you couldnt fly? (i.e. Failing a medical in few years, unemployment (Currently situation a good example) ) Its a backup in anycase!
All the best

[sgarvey]

I'm doing an undenominated Engineering degree, so im doing every sort of engineering under the sun, i can then diversify in year 3 into either civil, mech, electronic, electrical or computer eng.
My exams are 4 weeks away and im not looking good to pass, thats why i was considering dropping out before i sit them. What would b e the best? To drop out before them or to do them and to fail them? Thats another dilema i'm in, im so confused at the minute, i honestly think im too young to be making life decisions like this. I've no interest in engineering at all at the minute. Ive no motivation because ive nothing there to aim for really, where as if i was studying for my atpl or something i know that if i did well i could have the opportunity to fly pro one day. about aeronautical eng in UL, if its anything like what ive been doing i just wouldnt be interested at all. The only thing that interests me a fter flying is computers so thats why i was thinking of transferring to computer science.
Thanks for all your responses guys :)

Stephen

[Northern Highflyer]

Stephen

I have to agree with all the comments here. Whatever you do, do not drop out now. You have come too far so why not get your head down and study hard to make sure you pass the exams, it is only a few more weeks. If you are convinced you will fail them it could become a self fulfilling prophecy.

To study and pass the exams when you dislike the subject will show great character to any potential employer. I am just completing my HND, yes I do find it boring compared to flying and like you,flying is all I think about, but you need another string to your bow as there are too many unknowns chasing a flying career. I hope to start my exams later this year after completing my HND (which has to be done) but know that I need something else up my sleeve just in case things don't work out.

So I will stay in my boring but well paid job. There are no flying jobs at the moment for us wannabes so there is no rush to train yet. I can see this and I am 33 so age isn't on my side but I aim to qualify in 2005. There is nothing to be gained by rushing and making rash decisions, stick at it for now.

Hope things work out for you.

NH

[timzsta]

Give it your best shot with your exams. In the Navy we had a saying "better get into trouble for something you've done than something you havent!".

If you work hard and pass, you may feel a whole lot better about it. Why not say - if I pass, I will go do my trial lesson or get my medical. When I took my first ATPL writtens I kept myself motivated by thinking if you pass reward yourself with doing your night rating.

But you must have a plan B as well. Something the Navy told me when they accepted me, "make sure you have a plan B if this doesnt work out" etc. Remember too that everytime we plan to take off we have to have a plan B - ie VFR departure runway 06 at Southend, no turns below 600ft, crosswinds not limiting, route flight direct LYD VOR - thats the plan. But plan B is in the event of an emergency on the runway we will stop, once airborne if sufficeint runway left land, if not fly straight ahead carry out emergency procedures. Get the picture?

Once again, good luck, private message me if you want.

[El Thermidor]

What ever you do, take those exams. What's the worst that can happen? You fail all of them. And then you'll be in the same position as you'll be if you don't bother.

I really struggled through a Mechanical Engineering degree at Bristol. Through a combination of boozing, chasing birds and having to work 20 hours a week to support myself, I probably missed between a quarter and a third of my lectures, but cramming in May helped out. (So did retakes in September.) And I'm living proof that it's possible to pass a fluid dynamics exam by rote-learning entire pages of calculations the night before the exam. Through a combination of ignorance and stubbornness, I made it through three years, and when I discovered I could leave then with letters after my name, I took that chance.

If you really hate engineering, and believe me, I can understand why, have a chat with your tutor re. the possibility of moving direct to the second year of compsci, or whatever you want to do. (You may find this is only possible if you get over a certain percentage, say 60%, so that'll give you something to work for.)

If you drop out, then go for your class 1 and discover your heart is made from jam and string, what are you going to do? I'd be surprised if any serious wannabees here didn't have a half decent backup plan; indeed, many of these "backup plans" are being used at the moment to cope with the current jobs climate. Engineering might be dull, but it beats driving lorries for a living.

Good luck whatever you do, and apologies if this has come across as a slightly ranting lecture.

[Megaton]

Changing to Comp Sci won't help. What university does is take an interesting subject and then analyse it to the point it gets boring. Presumably, you had an interest in engineering to start with?

[Andrew M]

Being 16 and also wanting to fly as a career, although I am not doing a degree like you I am doing 4 scottish highers (= to A levels) and it is bloody hard work.

Now I discovered flying last August - I was so convinced that I would somehow gather up the money for a PPL and then a sponsor would take me from there. I was bored with my subjects and desperately wanted to leave.

I even considered dropping out to do a cr@ppy apprenticeship to earn the money for the PPL and then to get sponsored. Due to the lack of interest, my studies of these four highers went bollocks-up. During the prelim exams I failed the lot of them :( . I told myself I would improve but never bothered to did I:O .

I fell and broke my right arm last week and missed a weeks worth of lessons. During that time I realised what a waste of time this year has been. Now I am desperately studying as the first of my exams are 5 weeks away and now I am storming ahead. I got my head out of the clouds (nice metaphor - see I am doing my English study now !) and got some motivation for afterwards. If I pass 3 out of 4 exams then I will be training for 6 years to be an accountant.

During this time I will gather enough money if I save wisely to afford a PPL in my first year (if I go to the USA). Definately a CPL (via the 'modular' route - for future reference Stephen) at the end if I budget for it well enough !!!

Trust me there will be light at the end of the tunnel - just make sure it isn't a train coming the other way though or you may lose everything.

* Modular route = Training towards ATPL via PPL then seperate ratings and gathering experience. Someone else here could give you a better explaination.

[Northern Highflyer]

Andrew

I am assuming that you intend to do the CPL after your 6 years Accountancy training ? Doing the fATPL exams at the same time as an Accountancy qualification would leave your brain like jelly, and I would imagine, virtually impossible to do.

I studied for my PPL alongside my HND which was manageable but theres no way I would attempt the fATPL exams at the same time as any other study. You need to put in around 15-20 hours of study per week for the fATPL exams via the modular route.

[scroggs]

Dropping out of any academic course - particularly before any exams have been taken - is unlikely to persuade any potential sponsor that you have the determination and persistence to complete ATPL studies. Think very carefully before you take this step.

Don't burn any bridges for a flying career unless you are certain that it's what you want. You cannot be certain if you have never flown. Even with a PPL you will have no more idea about a commercial pilot's daily life than you do now, so make some serious effort to find out. There's plenty of research material here on Pprune.... Get the Class 1 medical, and sign up for the GAPAN aptitude tests. Brace yourself now for the fact that you will have to find that £50,000 to get yourself trained. Brace yourself also for the fact that many who start flying training never make it anywhere near an airliner's flight deck.

The people who succeed in the path you are considering tend to show amazing determination, resourcefulness, cunning, academic ability, and maturity, and are blessed with good health, good flying aptitude and a huge dollop of luck. Could that describe you?

Scroggs

[FireFoxDown]

Stephen,

Im in a similar situation - im one year older than you and one year ahead in college. Im doing Computer Science(want any info about this pm/email me) in a college not too far from your own (GCD) which im just managing to pass...:}

ive got two more years of college left. Ive got an SPL (Student Pilots Licence) out of Weston Airport, Kildare with the National Flight Centre(let me know if you want info about this too) and i just had an interview with the Air Corps last week. Im going to finish my degree in 2 years and then concentrate 100% on getting a job in aviation(RHS, Instuctor, Crop Duster...i dont know). Until then i take lessons when i can afford them and just keep planning the future.

as the others have said, dropping out of college, in my honest opinion, is a big NO NO! Stick with it - when you finish you can use it to get a well paid job to fund your training.

Anyway, i wont repeat everything that everyone else has said but if you do want any info (comp science, Weston etc.) give me a shout!
Regards,
FireFoxDown :O

[Boing7117]

Stephen, I was (and still am) in the same boat as you. We've even got the same first name for heavens sake !

I started uni when I was 18 (now I'm 20) and like you I had this idealistic idea that once I'd got my A-Levels I be walking along to BA and the likes and they'd be begging me to fly their aircraft. Sponsorships were in their prime around Autumn 2000, all the airlines were recruiting all over the place.

I applied to uni because I had to. Just like you I looked through the UCAS book, saw the phrase "Internet Web Design" and thought, "yep, that'll do, I like computers". Looking back I feel like a right old prat !! As far as I was concerned it was merely a stop gap for a couple of months before I got sponsored. I was soooo certain. I couldn't have been further from the truth. As it turned out, I was rejected at phase 1. The selected bunch ended up having their course cancelled 12 months later as 9/11 passed. I think they may have finished their courses of now but I can't be sure.

The point is, if I'd have not gone to uni (and I very nearly didn't - I made the closing date by 1 day!) - I really don't know where I would have been now. I would have been in a job which may or may not have had prospects for me, although I'm certain the job would not have been aviation based.

As it turned out, I got my head down and worked a bit. I'm now in my 3rd year of 4 years enjoying an undergraduate work placement. Its something I never thought of doing but thank god its given me an alternative, a back-up and something to work for. My "Internet Web Design" degree has shown me hundreds (and I mean hundreds) of different career paths I had never heard of. I'm lucky enough to be able to aim for one of those while the airline recruitment market struggles. In the meantime I'll have the security of a job (hopefully!), some money (to satisfy that flying craving!) and the knowledge that I'm hopefully doing the right thing, and more importantly a degree that not only gives me a few letters after my name, but a degree that has given me some "life experience" - something you can't be lecturered on and write essays about, but its something any employer would want to see you have plenty of it !!

Moral is Stephen, stick at it with uni. If you don't like the course and can't stand it, fine, change, do something you will enjoy. Only this time, read the prospectus a bit more thoroughly. You've got plenty of time yet !

Best of Luck

Stephen 2

[OBK!]

I might aswell give my 2 pence worth in this topic as I feel my experience is novel.

Let's start of with...I did drop out of college. From a young age my ideal path to "success", like anyone's I am sure, was to go through school, college, get 4 Alevels, get a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, come out at 22 and go for sponsorship and spend the rest of my life as a happy airline pilot....

WRONG.

Came out of school with 9 GCSE's, 2/3rds of em' A's. Went to college and started doing AS level Chemistry/Physics/Computing and Maths. Straight to the point, I hated it. I argued with lecturers, hated the social scene, couldn't compete with "fashion" and therefore was classed as a "sad individual", it was hell. The subjects where uterly boring and I would always find myself, like you, promising to better myself but never did, basically because I didn't have any motivation. The flight deck seemed further away than ever before. Then, September 11th was a big moral-de-booster.

However, I still wanted to be a pilot. There's not a moment in my life that I can remember where I have never wanted to be with an aircraft, never wanted to be in an aircraft....never wanted to fly. Who ever said no education will prevent you from getting a job with an airline....well, I had decided and gave them 'the finger'.

I came out of college, worked weekends, saved up and enroled on module 1 for ATPL's. During this time, I built my flying hours (which I had before hand...), and got my multi engine rating. Not long ago appeared on TV about my "sucesses". Scheduled to go on TV again in May about my "sucesses" (sp?). Maybe the guy who said 'you'll never do it without a good education' will respect '17 year old drop outs' more. I didn't go on TV to "show off" or be "big headed", I agreed to do it to show what can be acheivable (and maybe a few more little reasons, but they're irrelevant :cool: ).

Just got back this week from Mod 1 exams, all went ok but it is tough work. I can tell you something, it is much harder than college, yet much better. Instead of getting put down, the lecturers reward you and your endeavours, and everyone is equal. The fact that I was with people older than me doesn't bother me one bit. You're all there because you want to be, everyone is mutual and there for each other...unlike college, it was a battle, where everyone was judgemental about one thing only, your appearance...Is this what airlines want?

Anyway, there you go, a different perspective. I am hoping to have my (f)ATPL this time next year, 18, and ready for employment but by no means guaranteeing a job. It did it because I wanted to.

If you want more advice then just ask.

Good luck with what ever you decide.

[scroggs]

OBK, you may turn out to be the exception that proves the rule - but you're not there yet! I look forward to hearing about your progress as you go on.

All the advice above for Stephen is that he should play the percentage game, maximising his chances of getting into a worthwhile career even if it's not aviation - as it may well not be. He can choose to ignore this advice, as you have done, if he wishes - it's not compulsory - and drop out of college to undertake flying training.

The snag is that I, and most of the others who've replied, have a suspicion that he hasn't thought this through fully and may be expecting a somewhat easier ride to flying than is in fact the case - and he needs to understand that dropping out is not the easy option. Before making a decision that may have ramifications for the rest of his working life, he needs to understand exactly what he's doing. One of the most important points is that he's never flown. That's not a good base from which to declare that flying is going to be his career especially when, in doing so, he may be giving up the option of other worthwhile careers if flying doesn't work out.

Don't get me wrong, I have lots of respect for those who know at 8 years old that they're going to be a pilot and move heaven and earth to make it happen. That kind of vocational drive is awesome - and I saw and trained lots of those kind of guys in the RAF. They knew everything there was to know about aeroplanes, the RAF, the lifestyle, the risks etc. long before they joined up. They also knew what educational qualifications were required of them - and what would give them an advantage - and they worked their socks off to get those qualifications. I don't get the feeling from what I read that Stephen is one of these people. I may be wrong.

Scroggs

[OBK!]

I suppose I did forget to mention some 'things'.

Throughout all of this I have had the full support of mainly my father, who has always been there. I am so lucky to have a father who's ambition is to help me fullfill my chosen career. The agreement was that if I can fund for the ATPL exams myself (i.e proove to him I can do it....rather like with an airline I suppose), and pass them on my own behalf, he would help me out with the flying.

Before deciding to drop out of college I did a lot of thinking about career backups. I rang up several commercial training places such as the National IT Learning Centre, and they said if it doesn't work out I can go there and be funded by the government to do training for an IT related career, as I have a keen interest in IT. I also looked into BAE and several other aviation related careers that I could go down if I don't become a pilot. I also had a job offer from the company I worked for whilst doing work experience at school, apparantley as a "systems analyst"....they where willing to take me on straight out of school. I declined for obvious reasons.

The final decision for me to come out of college was supported by a handful of current pilots, instructors and 'other' people specific to the aviation industry. They told me I had their faith, and would at anytime be there for me. Apparantley to some I was "born with wings"....not quite :p It's thanks to these people I am doing what I am, and enjoying every second of it.

Scroggs, I will be glad to keep you informed on my future progress.

Cheers
obk

[Vin Diesel]

To be an airline pilot? Well, self sponsorship is probably the most likely route for you to take to get your fATPL. At this point however, as others point out, the ATPL exams are not a walk in the park.
I am in business in DCU. Ultimately i want to follow a career as an airline pilot. I have the Trevor Thom books which i read, and i have a few, not many, lessons, under my belt at PPL level. This will give you a good idea of what flying is about.
Whatever you decide to do as regards college, it would be prudent to have a plan B should aviation not work out. Bear in mind that many people who qualify with fATPL's never reach a commercial airliner cockpit.
I sense that engineering may have been the wrong course choice for you. But, showing that you can pass something that you do not enjoy, will show character. And of the 14 ATPL's i am certain that you will come up with something which equally will require "character" to pass, and first time passes and high scores will increase your attractiveness to potential employers.
In any event, good academic achievement will stand to you in life. Whatever you decide to do, good luck.
I would sit the exams, study my ass off for the next three weeks and try to pass. Then you have the summer to work, save some money, get a medical and i would strongly suggest taking a few lessons to get the feel of flying.
Also, do as much research as is humanely possible into all training options and career opportunities.

[IcarusGR]

Hello guys,

I think I can relate to Stephen in some way,
I just turned 18 years old and I am graduating from High School in the United States in 2 months. I have to note that I have never flown before. As scroggs was saying I am one of those people who from the age of 3 knew that I wanted to be a pilot and right now I am determined to get there no matter what!

Knowing many pilots here in the US and in Europe, I have researched and understood the life of a pilot and what it takes to be one.

As we all know, in order to work in a Major Airline in the United States you need a 4 year degree. Usually all aspiring pilots decide to go to college get a degree in a field of interest and then head over to Flight School and do their training. I am doing the total opposite, going to Flight School in Florida get all my ratings and then attend college. Many people in the U.S have put me down for this telling me that I will not go back to college and I will never achieve my goal. This may be true for many people, but the fact is that if you are determined individual that wants to be a pilot and you know that COLLEGE IS A MUST, you will go and study your ass off no matter what, even if it bores you to death! Some people might be saying that I am going to Flight School because I am scared im not gonna pass or I don't have the grades??? That is ridiculous, I have finished top of my class and Im sure I can get into most of the colleges I want to attend. But the fact is that I want to put my foot in the door early.

I saw that you are failing most of your subjects because they are boring?, so what if there boring, sit down for 4 5 6 as many as 7 hours and pass those exams!, you should be able to do it! , I don't know why it should be boring?, since when is learning something and gaining knowledge bad?

Stephen the thing that has helped me be confident no matter what people are telling me regarding college is that, I HAVE SET MY PRIORITIES ... dropping out of college for you right now isnt a good idea. Concentrate and make a plan out for yourself, you might have to jump many hurdles but that shouldn't stop you from your dream and your passion to fly. I hope all works out for you.


:ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I pick up on Scroggs theme - too little understanding of what you are getting into.

With little idea of the training, the employment market or the actual job it is simply a huge leap or faith at this age to commit to a professional flying career. It is likely to end negatively in my opinion.

During my time in Jerez I saw many types of student. The 17/18/19yr olds struggled on many different levels.

Youth = time on your side. In these troubled times that suggests one strategy... WAIT.

WWW

[tunneler]

Not sure I would entirely agree with your comments on 17/18/19 year olds at Jerez WWW. There were certainly a few jokers who were just there cos mummy and daddy could afford to throw cash at them left right and centre but I would definately say that they were in the minority. Would say that they all worked exceptionally hard and coped with the course every bit as well as the older guys and girls out there.

Would even go so far as to say that the older folk who were on the course struggled a little bit more due to being out of the "study habit" for so long. Also found that people who left wife/fiancee/ children at home struggled the most with homesickness which certainly affected their ability to devote everything to the course.

Everyone had their own personal issues to deal with while they were out there - dont really think age made all that much of a difference at all, if someone has the desire and determination to work through the course then they'll make it.

And thus ends my tuppence worth for Sunday :)

[D McQuire]

I´m with you on that one tunneler,

In my time here in Jerez I haven´t seen the youngsters struggle any more than the rest of us. In fact they usually get a handle on the flying side of things a lot quicker than the old farts like me. Maybe one or two have had motivation problems with some of the groundschool stuff but haven´t we all at some stage. Being hung upside down in a cell would be more fun than trying to learn some of the subjects (Ops Procedures and Air Law spring quite readily to mind).

At that age, apart from the lack of personal baggage when you take up these studies (whatever route modular/integrated/etc you choose), when you leave you can look for work anywhere the JAA fATPL is accepted.

Having a back up career is all very well but will it take 3 or 4 years of college? Plus a shed load of debt for a degree that you were not madly in love with in the first place? Then go rustle up 50k for what you wanted to do in the first place. How practical is all that?

Also, this constant mantra of don´t do it, the end is nigh is all very well and good but the day will come when airlines do get busy recruiting again. Maybe next year or the year after. And when it happens some of us will be ready with our fATPLs. Not ´Oh hang on just give me 18 months, then I´ll be ready´, no ready now. And before we get into any talk of ´Well then laddie you had better to be ready to get to the end of a very long queue´, there is no queue. Right now there is a whole bunch of fATPLs chasing the same very very few jobs. Whether you got your fATPL last week or two years ago matters not a jot. There is no queue. Whether you paid 50k over a short spell in Jerez or Oxford, or 50k over a longer spell doing it the modular way matters not a jot. You get the same fATPL and there is no queue.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The only cadets chopped were <20.

In general terms I think early 20's is a great time to undertake professioanl flying training. <20 and you are a bit immature. Knocking on the door of 30 and you've got long term relationships and other commitments distracting you.

Just in general terms as I say.

I've seen teenagers start an Integrated ATPL using parental cash who couldn't name you more than 6 UK airlines. Who didn't actually know what a "turboprop job" was. Who had come straight out of college chuffed to bits with their clutch of Good to OK exam results thinking that meant they were academically gifted.

It was scary to think of what they had gotten themselves into based on a scant understanding of the FTOs marketing material.

Do a PPL first and hang around some clubhouses, chat to some instructors - get a feel for the bottom rungs of the ladder. It'll open your eyes. Plus if you then go onto a full time ATPL course - the PPL hours all count and will allow you to skip forward to the IMC phases immediately. It'll probably save you money too.

WWW

[OBK!]

"<20 and you are a bit immature."


In what position are you to make a comment like this? Basically, this is ageism, your saying the younger....the more immature (erh..woops, just wizzed on my own bonfire!). But you can't just assume this and make a blunt comment like that. Because I will be 18/19 when I get my (f)ATPL does this mean I am going to get denied by airlines based on my age and because I am automatically considered immature? At least let me show you how good a guy I can be! Golly!

This could be a question in that all important airline interview,
"why should we choose you a not someone younger"
"Oh, because I am more mature"
"so your making an assumption?"
"erh, eeh, oohh..."
"see yah!".

I've been through the age discussion thing many times, basically because I was worried about being so young and applying to an airline. I was told not to let it get in my way, I am as professionally trained as anyone else?! And I can be as mature, if not more.


"I've seen teenagers start an Integrated ATPL using parental cash who couldn't name you more than 6 UK airlines."


Yep, I agree. Cocky aint they! But I've seen a hell of a lot more 25-30 year olds who can't tell the difference between a 747 and a 737 who fancy a "career change"....hmm.


"Who had come straight out of college chuffed to bits with their clutch of Good to OK exam results thinking that meant they were academically gifted."


:D I too detest thess people, but again, what position am I in to make a comment about these people. It's always an amusement to see someone who came out of college, grade A in physics, first class degree at Oxford blah blah blah...start pulling their hair out over general nav (my fav!)....golly gosh! Still, we're supposed to be envious of these people as they are airlines 'ideal sponsorship applicants'.

[fireflybob]

The question posed by this thread reminds me of George Bernard Shaw's advice to anyone contemplating marriage - DONT!!

With the current state of the aviation business you have to ask yourself how prudent it is to attempt to embark on a career as pilot, especially if you are self funding.

I would be the last to dampen anyone's aspirations since it was always my dream to become an airline pilot but in today's world I am not so sure I would advise my children to get involved!

[OBK!]

"With the current state of the aviation business you have to ask yourself how prudent it is to attempt to embark on a career as pilot, especially if you are self funding."

You have to remember how long it takes fireflybob....18 months to 2 years. You don't just decide, then give ~£50K to someone and they give you the blue book.

When is it going to be a better time? The grass is alway greener on the other side? What are your justifications when saying now isn't a good time to start training? No one knows for certain whats going to be down the line in terms of recruitment in a year or two, but I know this, I would much rather do my ATPL during a recruitment "hibanation" (sp?) period so that I don't miss out on golden oppurtunities....i.e NOW. In my opinion there's no better time to start training. If you prefer to give it a year or two down the line then I'm not here to persuade you to do otherwise, but you've just wasted that 1/2 years.

It amazes me to see that a lot of people seem to think the airline industry is going to suddenly bloom into this massive craving for pilots....it's not going to happen (even if it did, you've then got to save money, spend it over 2 years, over which time it will calm down, and you'll have missed that golden oppurtunity...!DAM "I wish I started 2 years ago")....so there's never a good time to start training, unless you have a job waiting for you.

[D McQuire]

WWW,

Just to set the current record straight regarding people getting chopped here in Jerez. Since the college introduced compulsory entry testing for potential candidates or the requirement to sit the GAPAN tests, no one tested has been chopped.

I did witness 3 people getting chopped mid last year (who all started prior to those entry requirements) and they included a chap in his 30s, a young lady in her early 20s and a young lad of 19. No obvious conclusions from that cross section.

So do the GAPAN tests wherever you choose to go. If you choose to kick it off with a PPL, do the GAPAN tests before you do anything - medical, introduction flight, whatever. Alternatively, if you are set on Jerez or Oxford, do their entry tests.

[Northern Highflyer]

In answer to "what's the best way.........." it has to be whatever suits you and your circumstances at that time. Once you are qualified you are qualified, same ticket and approximate hours as every other new fATPL.

Whether prople have the aptitude to do the course or have the nerve to start it is purely down to their outlook on life. At the end of the day (awful cliche) if you want to do it bad enough you will regardless of age, background, finances, or market situation.

I agree with YOUNG OBK ;) that there is never a good time. It boils down to personality, if you are 18 or 38 and want it so bad you will do it.

I have read PPRUNE for many months now, I take the information and weigh it up in my mind. I am fully aware if the risks (big ones at that) and the benefits IF I make it.

Despite all that I have wanted to fly since I was 4....yes 4.... (now 33) and no matter what, I will give it my best shot. Better to try and fail than not to try at all. Before anyone says anything yes I might have an fATPL and a massive debt with no job but it's in the blood and the soul. I love to study, I actually enjoyed studying for my PPL exams (sad huh?) and cannot wait to start the ATPL's.

To be honest I want to do the exams no matter what happens.
Fingers crossed it all works out. :ok:

[corsair]

Well Stephen, bet you didn't think the answers to your quesion would run to three pages and you'd still be confused. But don't worry you have plenty of time. You are still very young and immature and I don't mean that in a bad way. Yes and you OBK. Maturity comes with age and sometimes bitter exprerience. The problem with being immature is that you are never aware of your own immaturity.

But I do think that you and anyone else in your position needs to be a little like OBK, brook no obstacles and keep a clear sight of the goal no matter how far away it seems. OBK will succeed because he is determined AND he has the backing of his Father's money. But most important of all he has it all worked out and obviously has a plan. His optimism that his age won't effect the selection process is misplaced. It will, 18 or 19 year old airline pilots are rather rare. Would you fly with an airline that proudly boasts of it's teenage first officers??
But it's hard to convince a 17 year old of that. I'm not making fun of you OBK. I was that 17 year old once. I had a plan, had it all worked out. The only problem was that I didn't have a supportive Father or money or any clue on how to achieve my goal. Yes I got there in the end but it took a lot of time and money and angst. The problem with OBK's route is that it requires money NOW and it effectively rules him out of any possible sponsorship should that route ever arise again. But I don't doubt he'll spend an enjoyable few years instructing or para dropping or whatever before getting the airline job aged 23 or 24, say in 2009 or 2010. Yes that's right about 6 or 7 years from now. A horrendously long time away when you're 17.

In fact it will be around the same time as you Stephen and all you 18 year olds out there will be coming on line. Those that stick with it anyway.

But you need a plan. You have to stay in college, if you leave now and get a job in FLS or something like that you may be in your thirties before you get a pilot position if you get a pilot position. Jobs like that simply don't pay enough. I made that mistake. The point of going to college is that it leads to a well paid job and a career. With a well paid job and a career it is easier to get money from the banks. Banks don't like dreamers. They want their money back and you have to convince them they will.

So you don't like Engineering? OK find something you do like, preferably something highly paid. You don't have to do a four year degree. There are all sorts of two and three year courses. You could consider going to the UK and training as an Aircraft Engineer. It's very practically orientated training but sadly not as well paid as it ought to be. But it's an option.

Once set on that route start using your spare cash and try for a PPL At least start a PPL. That puts you on the scene. You'll spend your time around pilots like you and see how they're doing it. If sponsorships come up again in the meantime, apply by all means but don't depend on getting one. Be warned though it was nearly ten years before the like of Aer Lingus sponsored again after stopping it in 1978. In fact given the new regime in place complete sponsorship may never happen again.

Once you leave college get that good job but don't tell your employer of your secret plan. After a year or two you can try to borrow to money for the likes of Jerez or Oxford. Or you can go the modular route. You'll have to find out the details yourself. Start flying lessons and hang around Weston a lot, (if it's still there and hasn't turned into a housing estate),asking dumb questions. Do the GAPAN tests and get a medical. There is no need to pay for a full JAA class 1 just yet. There are several Doctors who will test you. In any case you'll need a medical for your SPL.
I started flying when I was 18 and finally got my CPL when I was 36. (Money and the lack thereof) It doesn't have to take that long but it might. But you will need to allow 6 to 8 years from now. All the gloomy prognostications post Sept 11 are all very well but no one knows what things will be like this time next year never mind four years from now.

The decisions you make now will will effect where you'll be in ten years time. This is where you will have to muster all the maturity you have right now. Make a plan and a plan B and be prepared to be flexible. Above all learn to be patient and think long term. There are those who believe no 18 year old can think like that so prove them wrong. Remember though nothing worth doing is easy or quick.

But no matter what happens you will enjoy the flying and the camraderie and all the rest. I certainly did. If you don't, find another career.

You are only at the very start of a long haul. It may look almost impossible right now but it's not, just nearly impossible!!!!

[Dogma]

Wanted to fly since I could look skyward.

I did it the modular route. Through pure cunning and determination, I qualified and now fly heavy jets. Great lifestyle, very good money, enjoying several months overseas each year.

Party on! Good luck dudes;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

OBK!. I made my generalised comments whilst wearing my Instructors Hat. I did a PPL at 17 and became an instructor at 19 so I am not in any way anti-teenager by experience. I have taught people to fly from an age range of 15 to 69 on both private and commercial courses.

It is my view, based on experience, that the ideal time to train is somewhere in the first half of your 20's. There are many examples of people who did it in their middle age or teen years. But I stand by my observation that issues of maturity often have adverse effect on flight training under the age of 20.

I am sure that this does not pertain to yourself. You seem very together about the whole thing.

DocMcGuire - thanks for digging out the figures. I think they mislead somewhat. As a member of the instructing staff there I can atest that we had more 'issues' with the teenage students than the others and that we attributed these in the main to factors you could lump together as maturity. The numbers under threat of being chopped were significantly higher amongst the youngsters and this was ackowledged by all during the routine process of course review amongst the staff.

By preferance an instructor would prefer to have a 24yr old graduate with half a PPL as his student than an 18yr old who has never flown before. As you will be well aware most instructors are in their mid 20's to mid 50's. I guess a typical mean would be about 30. Relating to an 18yr old can provide additional challenges which I admit is as much a fault of the instructor as the student.

Generalisations all.

WWW